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[Music]

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oh yeah welcome to it here we go uap

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studies podcast very special two year

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anniversary special episode i'm louis

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borges and of course with me i have a

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good buddy jason gilmette how are you

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sir i am doing very good today sir how

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are you i'm really really good i'm super

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excited uh we have on the show today a

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huge name in the field in my opinion one

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of the most credible people on the topic

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of uaps skinwalkers anything to do with

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this science a man who's a

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multi-award-winning

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news anchor an author i mean we're

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multiple emmy award winner edward r

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murrow award winner uh peabody award

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winner the host of his own program he's

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appeared on the history channel uh and

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we want to talk to him today about his

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latest book skinwalkers at the pentagon

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which she co-wrote with colin kelleher

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and dr james lykatsky so without further

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ado mr george knapp please welcome

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yourself

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yeah queen jason great to be with you

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happy anniversary by the way i hope you

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have some fun here today for sure for

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sure we were just having a quick chat

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before we got started here and already

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we're uh we're in awe of uh of your mind

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and uh just a really laid that laid back

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down to earth guy uh no bs you just want

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to look talk about the facts and uh

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you've been constantly pushing the topic

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of uap studies ufos since the mid 80s

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yeah and even on the topic of

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skinwalkers uh you've been at this over

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20 years so um probably the best source

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of anybody we could speak to about it uh

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so let's get right into it let's chat

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about how you got into this uh you know

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in the mid 90s and where it sort of

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progressed you today

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uh 1987. so it's 35 years ago i guess a

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guy named john lear walked into our tv

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station

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he had a stack of what i learned later

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were ufo documents and plopped them on

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the desk of a friend of mine my mentor

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ned day who was our managing editor at

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klas tv says ned this is the biggest

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story ever you got to look into it ned

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takes a look at some of the ufo files

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and shoved it aside and says this can't

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be real if it was true i'd know about it

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he was kind of cocky like i was back in

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those days

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uh ned had a certain amount of uh

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interest in john lear because lear had

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helped ned and klas

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bob stowed all my my boss break a really

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big story that is about the existence of

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the stealth fighter

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which was not known until we reported it

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and so lear got entry into the studio

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got an

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audience with ned and then ned said no

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thanks well i was eavesdropping as i

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always do and i said let me take a look

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at that pile of stuff and it's some of

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the documents that have been re released

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about ufos via the freedom of

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information act now that well this is

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pretty interesting i was not aware that

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there were legitimate documents in a

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paper trail

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so i had lear come on a radio show or a

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talk show that i hosted at the time

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called on the record

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and i just let him go

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it's it's a show that would air at you

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know seven o'clock in the morning on a

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saturday or sunday public affairs it

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usually had like a city councilman or a

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county commissioner and the audience was

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very small no one watched it unless they

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were political junkies i put lear on

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this show and he did his thing outlines

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this outrageous

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outrageously huge conspiracy a ufo

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picture that i was unfamiliar with and i

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was blown away by it i didn't know what

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to think of it it was just sort of a

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willing suspension of disbelief for the

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time being but as a result of that show

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when it aired the phone starts ringing

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like crazy people are wondering is that

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guy for real what's the deal on ufos do

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you believe this stuff i didn't really

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know how to answer it because it didn't

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have much familiarity with the topic but

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i started reading

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and the more i read the more intrigued i

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was i had lear come back on the program

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almost a year later the response was

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even bigger i had him on a third time

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and the response was bigger by

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magnitudes each time he was there and

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the more i learned the more intriguing

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it became and as you guys know you know

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90 95 percent of everything you see and

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read and hear in the ufo world is

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explainable it's not entirely

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but it is explainable um prosaic

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explanations for ufo sightings a lot of

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the conspiracy theories that that erupt

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over the years are made up

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they can't be verified

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so you have to be careful in how you

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proceed but that remaining five to seven

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percent of cases um documents theories

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are legit as far as we know they they

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there's a kernel of truth in there so

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that's what hooked me um you know what

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really got me going is is not the ufos

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that appear in the sky it was the paper

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trail the government documents as a

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journalist that's something i could dig

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my my teeth into and pursue and we did

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we got a file a lot of foia requests of

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our own

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i got uh all the foia requests that have

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been released to that date on ufos and

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it's very clear there's a legitimate

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interest in this topic at the highest

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levels of our military and government

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and that has been obscured they just

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haven't told the public the truth

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they've tried to downplay it and dismiss

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it but behind closed doors before the

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freedom of information act ever became

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the law of the land when these military

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folks

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conversed and exchanged ideas on the

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topic of ufos

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when they thought that no one would ever

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see these memos and documents they took

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it very seriously

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they said it's real it's not fictitious

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or imaginary it's real we need to figure

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out what it was they entertained the

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idea that it might be russians and they

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quickly crossed that off the list we're

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still here that now by the way russian

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ufos russian drones chinese drones still

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hear that they know damn good well it's

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not chinese and russian drones it wasn't

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50 60 70 years ago and it's not today we

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are now this year it's a 75th

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anniversary of key uh

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events in the history of ufos uh the

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roswell incident in july

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kenneth arnold sighting that 75th

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anniversary is in june the creation of

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the cia and the air force today in fact

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is an anniversary your anniversary but

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it's also the 25th anniversary of the

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phoenix lights that case started here in

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nevada

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somebody saw

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this huge v-shaped craft in the sky over

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henderson about it it then traveled to

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prescott arizona then it was over

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phoenix

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the videos were recorded by and there

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were thousands and thousands of

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witnesses and that's case went all over

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the world it's one of those rare cases

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that gets beyond just the boundaries of

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ufo world it's known to the public so

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you know this year is a key anniversary

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uh we've come a long way in the last

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couple of years

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but we still have so far to go

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sorry i got rambling there no not at all

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that's that's amazing and we are a uap

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based show i mean this is the first time

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we've had the topic of skinwalkers other

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than with having thomas winterton on the

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show in the past so uh we have

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definitely spoken to people boots on the

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ground uh similar to yourself so so tell

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us a little bit about you know your work

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with nids and robert bigelow and how

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that sort of transition into you know

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deeper government investigations with

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these things uh that weren't publicly

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known up until just recently in 2017

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with that new york times article about

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atip and you know we had sean cahill who

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was actually on the uss princeton uh

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which where the tic tac video was

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recorded so um were we want to get as

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close to the people that were

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experiencing that and i know that uh you

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and some of your colleagues have also

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had bizarre things happen so kind of

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give us an idea of the rundown how it

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started and where we're at now

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well uh after those initial shows with

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lear i started reading and learning as

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much as i could we produced a series in

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1989 called ufos the best evidence i

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worked about eight months on it which

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for a tv station that's a pretty

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substantial

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investment of time and resources uh we

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thought in initially well this could be

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a couple of parts it ended up being nine

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parts 12 to 13 minutes each which for tv

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that's that's outrageous you know it was

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but it was the highest rated it remains

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the highest rated

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locally produced tv news series in the

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history of las vegas i mean it went

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everywhere

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that story

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one of the focuses was on bob lazar so

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after i had met lear and uh and had

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those experiences bob lazar and his

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friend gene huff sought me out they

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thought well this is a guy we could talk

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to and at the time lazar was afraid he

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was going to be killed he was genuinely

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in fear for his life so we got to know

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him my news director and i went up there

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and interviewed him put him through his

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paces and we started investigating his

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background we put his story as part of

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this series ufo's the best evidence but

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really it was a much larger picture and

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look at the ufo uap topic in those days

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it went through the roof we did a

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follow-up series in

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may of 1990 and in between those after

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the first one it aired i get a call from

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a guy named robert bigelow the secretary

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says hold for robert bigelow i've never

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heard the name before he gets on the

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phone and says hey that series was

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really good uh congratulations i hope

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you stick with it and then he says can i

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help you in some way i said well i don't

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know what you mean i mean financially

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can i support you i said well you know i

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can't do that i work for a tv station

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but i'll keep you in mind and thanks

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very much robert bigelow as we now know

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is not somebody to be denied and after

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that he he wanted to get an introduction

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to lazar and i said well you know

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there's a lot of people want to do that

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i'm i'm going to pass on it

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uh bigelow hired a couple of private

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investigators found lazar got to know

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him and then we started hanging out we'd

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go out and have a meal or a drink or a

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coffee and start talking ufos and this

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went on for months and eventually

271
00:09:58,630 --> 00:09:56,080
bigelow

272
00:10:00,470 --> 00:09:58,640
uh decided to start investing money with

273
00:10:02,470 --> 00:10:00,480
ufo researchers

274
00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:02,480
and he struck a deal with lazar they had

275
00:10:06,790 --> 00:10:04,720
somewhat of a little business going for

276
00:10:08,310 --> 00:10:06,800
six months or so something like that

277
00:10:10,310 --> 00:10:08,320
but bigelow started handing out to

278
00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:10,320
people money to people like stan

279
00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:12,880
friedman um linda howe

280
00:10:15,910 --> 00:10:14,000
john mack

281
00:10:17,269 --> 00:10:15,920
uh a number of other luminaries names

282
00:10:19,110 --> 00:10:17,279
that you would know

283
00:10:21,509 --> 00:10:19,120
jason show them your stanton friedman

284
00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:21,519
picture there's your telepathic man we

285
00:10:26,310 --> 00:10:23,440
sketched this photo of stanton friedman

286
00:10:28,230 --> 00:10:26,320
earlier and uh yeah we uh we're also a

287
00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:28,240
big fan of his work so continue it was

288
00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:30,240
just sort of a coincidence that you know

289
00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:32,240
i moved to las vegas i had no idea there

290
00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:34,160
was a place called area 51 i didn't know

291
00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:36,240
about the nevada test site where all the

292
00:10:39,829 --> 00:10:38,000
atomic bombs were blown up nellis air

293
00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:39,839
force base i didn't know there was a guy

294
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:41,680
named bob lazar i didn't know about john

295
00:10:46,069 --> 00:10:43,760
lear or robert bigelow and all these

296
00:10:48,470 --> 00:10:46,079
things sort of coalesced in an amazing

297
00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:48,480
series of coincidences that led to where

298
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:51,279
we are now but las vegas plays such a

299
00:10:55,509 --> 00:10:54,240
key role in what we now know about uap

300
00:10:56,870 --> 00:10:55,519
and ufo

301
00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:56,880
that i don't think anyone could have

302
00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:58,640
foreseen you have to wonder what's in

303
00:11:03,509 --> 00:11:00,880
the water here so i develop a friendship

304
00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:03,519
with with the bigelow and lazar we do

305
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:06,720
additional stories i start getting leads

306
00:11:09,509 --> 00:11:07,680
uh and

307
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:09,519
sources from all over the world people

308
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:11,279
sending me this and that and i kind of

309
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:13,120
got hooked now i'm still a full-time

310
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:15,920
investigative reporter for klas the ufo

311
00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:18,720
part is a very small percentage of what

312
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:20,800
i normally do but it really grabbed my

313
00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:24,000
attention and i remember in those days

314
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:26,000
it was almost like missionary zeal you

315
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:28,000
know when you're born again or something

316
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:29,279
like that you want to share this

317
00:11:33,110 --> 00:11:31,519
information you have sort of a i don't

318
00:11:35,430 --> 00:11:33,120
know if i'd call it an epiphany but at

319
00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:35,440
some point back then i realized hey this

320
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,519
stuff this stuff is real

321
00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:39,200
uh you know and i was kind of cocky in

322
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:41,440
those days in the sense that

323
00:11:45,590 --> 00:11:43,519
the topic is a mess i had read enough to

324
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:45,600
know that it's a real mess a lot of

325
00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:47,519
disinformation and misinformation and

326
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:49,120
conspiracy nuts and all kinds of

327
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,720
theories that couldn't be proven i

328
00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:52,399
figured well give me six months i'll

329
00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,839
have this whole thing wrapped up and

330
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:55,440
sorted out you know

331
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:56,800
obviously

332
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:58,320
that's not the way it worked out here it

333
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:01,040
is 35 years later and although i know a

334
00:12:06,069 --> 00:12:03,519
lot more i understand a lot less it's

335
00:12:07,430 --> 00:12:06,079
it's a lot more complicated than what we

336
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:07,440
believed back then you know the

337
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,000
prevailing paradigm at the time was that

338
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,880
ufos are craft that visit us from other

339
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:13,839
planets

340
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:17,279
and that is mind-boggling in itself but

341
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:18,880
you know my my thinking on it has

342
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:20,399
shifted quite a bit that i'm sure we'll

343
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:21,519
get into

344
00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:22,720
anyway

345
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:25,680
early 90s relationship with a friendship

346
00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:28,480
with bigelow and i still am pursuing ufo

347
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,560
matters a lot of things happened to

348
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:33,040
lazar's life that we can get into

349
00:12:35,829 --> 00:12:33,760
but

350
00:12:37,829 --> 00:12:35,839
bigelow had got tired of just giving out

351
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,839
money to individual researchers he

352
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:39,440
created his own

353
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:41,519
ufo think tank which is called nids the

354
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:45,440
national institute for discovery science

355
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:47,279
and he brought together a science

356
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,600
advisory board that consisted of really

357
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:51,200
some of the best minds in the world not

358
00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:53,600
just on the ufo topic but any topic

359
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,079
there are two primary focuses for needs

360
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:58,959
one was survival of consciousness after

361
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,399
physical death

362
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:02,560
do we go on and then the other part was

363
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:05,279
the ufo mystery and they had experts on

364
00:13:09,190 --> 00:13:06,800
the science advisory board on both

365
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:09,200
topics in addition bigelow hired people

366
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:12,320
like colin kelleher eric davis to uh

367
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:14,880
constitute an investigative team

368
00:13:19,750 --> 00:13:16,800
they would uh they had boots on the

369
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:19,760
ground uh responses to things like

370
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:22,240
cattle mutilations uh they did a study

371
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,560
of the black triangles they they were

372
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:26,880
looking for ideas which is why bigelow

373
00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:28,959
got me involved is that he wanted me to

374
00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:31,200
be a consultant to nids to give them

375
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:33,040
ideas on what they could do the first

376
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:35,040
thing i did was about russia i had gone

377
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:37,600
to russia in the early 90s brought back

378
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:39,839
several hundred pages of what were then

379
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:42,000
classified documents about the russian

380
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,760
ufo program

381
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:45,519
at the very first meeting of the science

382
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:47,600
advisory board of nids they had me make

383
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:49,680
a presentation and

384
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:51,440
i was blown away by who was around the

385
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,639
table hal put off jacques valet

386
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:56,720
dr edgar mitchell six man to walk on the

387
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:59,440
moon uh senator harrison schmidt the

388
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:01,120
last man to walk on the moon was part of

389
00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:04,240
the board uh and then a lot of other uh

390
00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:06,880
academics just brilliant people was your

391
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:08,800
heart pounding out your presentation

392
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:10,240
yeah it was it was just awesome i was

393
00:14:15,509 --> 00:14:13,600
blown away by it and then nids continued

394
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:15,519
they looked for ideas one of the ideas i

395
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:17,680
gave them in 96 was a guy named phil

396
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:20,560
corso and i phil corso had come into

397
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:22,959
contact with him i think in 93.

398
00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:25,440
uh the ufo world had never heard of him

399
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:27,120
but he was at that point starting to

400
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:28,800
work on what became a book called the

401
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:31,440
day after roswell and he claimed very

402
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:33,600
intricate knowledge about roswell he had

403
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:36,240
been working at a very exclusive office

404
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:38,800
in the pentagon that basically claims

405
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,360
that they distributed bits and pieces of

406
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:43,680
crash retrieval material

407
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:46,240
to u.s labs and u.s

408
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,079
companies so that they can develop

409
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:50,320
technology based on that so when i first

410
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:51,120
met

411
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:52,000
phil

412
00:14:56,829 --> 00:14:54,079
corso we reached an agreement i was

413
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,839
going to write his book and then we had

414
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:58,240
a um

415
00:15:14,150 --> 00:14:59,040
a

416
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,160
out to corso

417
00:15:18,310 --> 00:15:16,160
take these brainiacs who work for you

418
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:18,320
along and see what they think well

419
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,839
that's what we did i reached out to

420
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,320
corso a group of us flew to florida

421
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:25,040
where he lived met with him i i recorded

422
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:26,720
a couple of hours of that conversation

423
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:29,040
on a little camera i had two weeks later

424
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,720
they brought him back out to las vegas

425
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:32,160
where another group of mids people

426
00:15:36,550 --> 00:15:34,240
including jacques valet questioned him

427
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:36,560
for hours we recorded that as well so

428
00:15:39,749 --> 00:15:37,759
that was the kind of

429
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:39,759
projects that we did back then

430
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,040
i was strictly a an outside consultant

431
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:45,279
to nids but i was allowed to be a fly on

432
00:15:47,749 --> 00:15:46,399
the wall

433
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:47,759
so i was allowed to develop

434
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:49,279
relationships with a lot of the key

435
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:51,279
people who were there and that led to so

436
00:15:55,030 --> 00:15:53,199
many great things through the

437
00:15:56,310 --> 00:15:55,040
rest of my life that i'm sure we can get

438
00:15:58,150 --> 00:15:56,320
into

439
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:58,160
so in terms of um

440
00:16:01,749 --> 00:15:59,440
when you were with nids and when robert

441
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:01,759
bigelow was creating that coincidentally

442
00:16:08,069 --> 00:16:04,639
he was also purchasing skinwalker ranch

443
00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:08,079
in 96 from a ranch family that bought it

444
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,320
wanting it to be their dream um resort

445
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:13,199
you know it was uh very lush and well

446
00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:14,639
watered there was cattle there was a

447
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:16,639
couple of homesteads and it was their

448
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:18,959
their dream home and i heard you mention

449
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:20,800
in another interview that the people

450
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:22,160
that lived there were upstanding

451
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:24,320
citizens you know lady worked for the

452
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:25,839
school board i think you said the

453
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:28,639
husband was a very hunter fisherman

454
00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:30,800
outdoorsy not scared of animals the kids

455
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:32,320
were drunk

456
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,880
yeah they had guns like this is uh and

457
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:36,240
you know by the time they'd only been

458
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:37,440
there a couple years and by the time

459
00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,279
robert bigelow came they were all

460
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:41,600
sleeping in the same room of a house

461
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,199
completely emotionally and

462
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:45,600
psychologically tortured uh from what

463
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:46,959
the hell had been happening like it just

464
00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:49,600
crumbled these people and so coins like

465
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:52,240
if if robert bigelow's looking for

466
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:54,160
more solid sources than just giving out

467
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:56,639
money willy-nilly to anybody with ideas

468
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:59,360
uh what a perfect little lab to buy it's

469
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:02,240
the best ant farm in the world to really

470
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:03,839
study some of this phenomenon and the

471
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:06,400
list of phenomenon is more diverse than

472
00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:07,919
anything else you can talk about in the

473
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:09,919
uap world so

474
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:12,559
yeah i don't think robert bigelow had

475
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:15,039
any idea about the depth and breadth of

476
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:16,959
the weirdness that was at that ranch i

477
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,120
mean he was primarily interested in ufos

478
00:17:22,150 --> 00:17:20,640
you know there are some scattered

479
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,160
reports at that point about other

480
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:25,199
phenomena uh bigfoot cattle mutilations

481
00:17:28,870 --> 00:17:26,880
things of that sort but he went there

482
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:28,880
because it was a ufo hotspot that was

483
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:30,880
his interest he sent a team down there

484
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,880
they went to the property met with we

485
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:34,799
call them the gorman family and you're

486
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,480
right they were salt of the earth rock

487
00:17:41,669 --> 00:17:38,799
solid family that the dad was a college

488
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:41,679
educated expert in the insemination of

489
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:44,640
cattle in in breeding hybrid cattle that

490
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,799
were very expensive animals he was a

491
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:48,799
world-class hunter

492
00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:51,600
a gamesman and uh you know and and was

493
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,440
afraid of nothing his wife was a vice

494
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:55,840
president of a bank in town the two kids

495
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:57,840
were straight a student so they moved to

496
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:00,960
that property in 94 had no idea about

497
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:02,799
the reputation of the area let alone

498
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:04,480
that specific property then they

499
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,160
intended to spend the rest of their

500
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:08,320
lives there fast forward to 20 months

501
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:10,320
later they couldn't wait to get out by

502
00:18:14,470 --> 00:18:12,320
the time bigelow and his team arrived at

503
00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:14,480
the ranch to meet with the rancher that

504
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:17,120
family was all sleeping on the ground on

505
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,039
the floor in the same room at night

506
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:21,520
because of for protection so they all be

507
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:23,600
together because they've been absolutely

508
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,760
terrorized for the previous 20 months

509
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:27,039
you know and

510
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:30,240
the uinta basin has been a ufo hotspot

511
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:31,919
for as long as people have lived there

512
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:33,520
you know the research that was done

513
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:36,160
later by uh bigelow and others uh

514
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:38,320
documented that there's a guy named uh

515
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:40,080
junior hicks who'd been a

516
00:18:43,669 --> 00:18:41,679
science teacher in the neighborhood he'd

517
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,679
been a science teacher for 45 years i

518
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:46,080
think he just died about two years ago

519
00:18:50,549 --> 00:18:47,919
but he had become the unofficial

520
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:50,559
historian of all things ufo in that

521
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:51,919
basin and there were hundreds and

522
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:54,640
hundreds of cases as his students would

523
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:56,400
would grow up and become adults they'd

524
00:19:00,630 --> 00:18:58,160
reach out to him when they saw things

525
00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:00,640
and some by some estimates as many as 80

526
00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:02,240
or 90 percent of the people who live in

527
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,320
the uh basin have seen it or somebody

528
00:19:08,390 --> 00:19:06,000
else in their families have seen it and

529
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:08,400
by it i mean craft in the sky weird

530
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:11,200
stuff but it wasn't just ufos

531
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:13,120
that was the focus of a book called the

532
00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:15,440
utah ufo display that came out in the

533
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:17,600
70s which established beyond any doubt i

534
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,080
think based on junior hicks's cases that

535
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,080
it was in fact a ufo hotspot and have

536
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:24,080
been going on for maybe hundreds of

537
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,559
years but there was a lot more that was

538
00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:28,480
not investigated that was the weirdness

539
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:29,840
that we now know associated with

540
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,160
skinwalker ranch bigelow goes there puts

541
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,480
his team on the ground they somehow talk

542
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:36,240
this rancher into staying on as the

543
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:38,400
ranch manager while his family moved

544
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:40,000
away to escape whatever the hell this

545
00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:42,400
was there that had been terrorizing them

546
00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:44,480
and um and then they set up shop they

547
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:46,400
put up cameras they all kind of sensor

548
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:48,559
gear to try to document whatever was

549
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:50,240
going on there and then quickly they

550
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:53,200
learned this went way beyond ufos

551
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,120
far far beyond anything that they'd ever

552
00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:57,200
experienced before as i said when i

553
00:20:02,549 --> 00:19:59,360
started the prevailing paradigm at the

554
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,559
time was ufos represent alien technology

555
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:04,320
extraterrestrials coming here from some

556
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:06,240
other planet to visit us and take

557
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:07,840
samples and abduct people once in a

558
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:11,200
while that entirely changed that totally

559
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:13,200
was blown away by what happened at the

560
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:14,880
ranch and and again because i was

561
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:16,960
friends with robert bigelow became

562
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:19,120
friends with column eric davis how put

563
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:20,880
off i was allowed to be a fly on the

564
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:23,039
wall for a lot of what they did couldn't

565
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:24,960
publicize it i couldn't go with a story

566
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:27,679
on it but you know as always with uh

567
00:20:30,549 --> 00:20:28,799
bigelow

568
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,559
the understanding was he allows me to

569
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:32,799
know about this stuff and eventually my

570
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:34,559
intention was to go forward with it to

571
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,200
publicize it it sometimes took a long

572
00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:39,280
time you know with the the the

573
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:40,880
skinwalker stuff i couldn't talk about

574
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,880
it for seven years

575
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:45,120
uh there had been a couple of

576
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:47,039
newspaper articles i think the deseret

577
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:49,200
news uh had done a couple of pieces

578
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:51,679
about the rancher and some of what he's

579
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:54,720
experiencing but the vast the weirdest

580
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:57,600
stuff the strangest incidents

581
00:21:00,230 --> 00:20:59,280
uh that had happened had not been made

582
00:21:01,909 --> 00:21:00,240
public

583
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,919
when i started hearing about this stuff

584
00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:03,280
i didn't know what to think i mean i had

585
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:05,440
no idea what to make of this i never

586
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:07,440
looked at poltergeists or something like

587
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:10,559
that and to to be frank uh we don't know

588
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,440
that it's poltergeists at all it just it

589
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:15,200
sort of got lumped in with that because

590
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,440
it's comparable to those kind of

591
00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:19,440
incidents that have been reported around

592
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:21,440
the world throughout human history don't

593
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:23,360
know what it is but that's sort of the

594
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,760
mental uh category that people put this

595
00:21:29,830 --> 00:21:27,760
stuff into but there was some kind of a

596
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:29,840
an intelligence at the ranch there is no

597
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:31,919
question about that sometimes you could

598
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:34,720
see it manifest itself in different ways

599
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:37,760
physically sometimes it was

600
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:39,280
psychic

601
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,960
the people who were there including the

602
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:42,720
nids team felt that they were always

603
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:45,039
being watched that whatever it was

604
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,799
was always one step ahead of them it

605
00:21:50,549 --> 00:21:48,240
knew what they were going to do before

606
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:50,559
they did it there were if you've seen

607
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:52,559
brandon fugle and his team and the

608
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:54,960
secret skin walker ranch tv series

609
00:21:59,029 --> 00:21:56,720
they've now put on camera a lot of what

610
00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:59,039
was happening to the nids guys right off

611
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:01,360
the bat is that you know compasses would

612
00:22:06,390 --> 00:22:04,080
spin out of control um batteries would

613
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,400
die cameras would die equipment would

614
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:09,120
malfunction things would disappear

615
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:10,559
this is sort of like what happened to

616
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,919
the ranch family when they were first

617
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:13,760
there you know they things would move

618
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,320
around the wife would take a shower

619
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:17,919
every morning she'd go into the bathroom

620
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:20,240
lock the door put a towel and a

621
00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:22,480
hairbrush on the cabinet go and take a

622
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:24,559
shower come out well she comes out one

623
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:27,039
day the door's still locked but the

624
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:28,640
towel and the hairbrush are gone they

625
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,080
found the hair brush i think in the

626
00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:32,159
freezer things would move around in the

627
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:34,720
house equipment the ranchers outside he

628
00:22:38,549 --> 00:22:36,559
would dig a post hole

629
00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:38,559
used a post hole digger heavy piece of

630
00:22:42,549 --> 00:22:40,240
equipment to dig these holes to put

631
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:42,559
fencing in he stops to take a wipe his

632
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:44,720
brow take a sip of water looks around

633
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:47,360
the the post hole digger the device is

634
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:49,120
gone they found it a couple of weeks

635
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:51,919
later up in a cottonwood tree um

636
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:55,600
a giant an entire cord of wood moved

637
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:57,840
like six inches uh you know strange

638
00:23:01,669 --> 00:23:00,080
little things like that and they always

639
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,679
felt they were being watched they would

640
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,840
at night they would feel the ground

641
00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:05,919
rumble they would hear sounds metallic

642
00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:07,760
sounds coming from the ground as if

643
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:09,440
there was some kind of a steel mill or

644
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:11,919
an underground railroad sometimes the

645
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:14,159
entire pasture at night would would be

646
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:16,240
lit up by bolts of light that come out

647
00:23:19,909 --> 00:23:18,320
of the sky occasionally they said there

648
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:19,919
would be bolts of light that seemed to

649
00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:21,840
come out of the ground they saw every

650
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:24,559
imaginable shape of ufo that you could

651
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:26,559
you could possibly describe

652
00:23:31,350 --> 00:23:29,760
sombreros uh classic flying saucers

653
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:31,360
sombrero things that would fly right

654
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:34,159
into skinwalker ridge they would see uh

655
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,799
things that look like an f-117 stealth

656
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:38,799
fighter that would float

657
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:41,919
silently over the property uh they had a

658
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:44,080
ring of lights like almost multi-colored

659
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:45,919
christmas lights around this thing and

660
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:48,080
it would shine down bolts of light as if

661
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:49,360
it was looking for something on the

662
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:51,600
property there was one night where the

663
00:23:55,750 --> 00:23:54,080
the wife was at home alone she'd come

664
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:55,760
home and there was these two strange

665
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:58,559
creatures a gigantic dog with a tiny

666
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,960
head and then a huge wolf bigger than

667
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,880
the wolf that they first saw on the day

668
00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:04,480
they first moved in

669
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:06,080
standing there at the front gate

670
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:07,679
watching her and she went through the

671
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,919
gate she hustles onto her house kind of

672
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:12,000
scared she calls her husband who was

673
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:14,159
away from the property at the time says

674
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:15,600
something really strange is going on

675
00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:17,200
here i need you to come home he was a

676
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:19,120
couple hundred miles away trying to sell

677
00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:21,279
some cattle he jumps in his car starts

678
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:23,440
driving in the meantime she's peeking

679
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:26,480
out the the curtains in that ranch house

680
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:29,039
and they're out in the pasture about 50

681
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:32,159
yards from the house is a ufo that lands

682
00:24:37,269 --> 00:24:35,279
that sits there lands and it uh a

683
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:37,279
doorway opens this light comes spilling

684
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:39,200
out into the pasture and there there

685
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:41,120
looks like what is preposterous but it

686
00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:42,559
looks like a desk right in the middle of

687
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:45,120
this this office of this ufo

688
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,360
and as she's watching in terror this

689
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:50,159
gigantic form like a nine foot tall

690
00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:53,120
darth vader walks up to the desk and

691
00:24:57,350 --> 00:24:55,120
sits behind it and is just staring at

692
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:57,360
her again she calls her husband tries to

693
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:00,080
get him to even rush even faster she

694
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:02,480
closes the curtain and uh they didn't

695
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:03,520
know what to make of this when the

696
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:05,520
husband gets home he finds the

697
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:08,080
indentations where this thing had sat

698
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:10,640
down and he finds these size 14 shoe

699
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:12,480
prints that are in the in the mud there

700
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:15,120
it really physically happened the the

701
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:17,760
investigations by nids and then later by

702
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,880
asap

703
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:20,000
are bass

704
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:22,080
were very frustrating because you'd have

705
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:23,679
physical evidence that something

706
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:24,640
happened

707
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:26,320
but it was really hard to nail down and

708
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:28,720
nothing ever happened the same

709
00:25:33,510 --> 00:25:30,320
there would be things that would happen

710
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:33,520
just outside of the site of the cameras

711
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:34,880
there would be things that happened

712
00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:36,640
where the cameras were disabled there

713
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:38,880
was one incident where they had a camera

714
00:25:43,990 --> 00:25:41,360
up on top of a telephone pole that would

715
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:44,000
have a broad view of the of the property

716
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:46,159
and there were other cameras like that

717
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:48,720
as well on other poles something got

718
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:50,880
tired of being watched and it went up

719
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:53,600
that pole and ripped the shreds this

720
00:25:57,909 --> 00:25:55,360
camera not only the camera that was

721
00:25:59,669 --> 00:25:57,919
disabled but the wiring that went down

722
00:26:02,630 --> 00:25:59,679
the telephone pole

723
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:02,640
had been secured by a plastic

724
00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:04,400
device and then that was secured with

725
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:06,960
tape all that was ripped up and was gone

726
00:26:10,630 --> 00:26:08,799
the nid's team realizes hey we've got

727
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:10,640
another camera that should have an angle

728
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:12,320
on this we could see what went up there

729
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:14,320
was it an animal was it a person well

730
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:16,720
they go back they back time it they look

731
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,400
at the point where the camera was

732
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:19,840
disabled whatever it did it was

733
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:20,960
invisible

734
00:26:27,510 --> 00:26:25,360
through their cattle there were horrible

735
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:27,520
mutilation incidents there was one night

736
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:29,760
in a blinding snow storm when something

737
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:31,360
went in and killed all the cats on the

738
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:33,039
property there was another incident

739
00:26:35,669 --> 00:26:33,919
where

740
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:35,679
the rancher is on the phone i think to

741
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:38,080
bigelow at the time and his three big

742
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,360
dogs are

743
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:41,600
snapping and jumping at this blue orb

744
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:43,200
that was we could talk about that

745
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:45,120
further too called blue meanies as our

746
00:26:48,870 --> 00:26:47,120
nickname for them but this thing is

747
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:48,880
staying just outside the snapping jaws

748
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:50,960
of these dogs and it's leading them

749
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:52,400
across the property

750
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:54,880
into this brushy area and the rancher

751
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:56,480
goes hey i gotta go something's happened

752
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:57,919
here hangs up the phone and then here's

753
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:00,559
these shrieks from his three dogs

754
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:02,720
they're gone and in the morning he all

755
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:04,720
he found was a greasy

756
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:07,679
three greasy spots with some loose hairs

757
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:09,840
where these dogs have been vaporized

758
00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:11,840
there were cryptid creatures that

759
00:27:16,549 --> 00:27:13,919
appeared that would attack their animals

760
00:27:18,789 --> 00:27:16,559
for example they came home one day and

761
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:18,799
this thing this heavily muscled looking

762
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:21,360
hyena looking thing but with a big bushy

763
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:25,440
tail like a box and a big long claws was

764
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:27,120
toying with one of their horses the

765
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:29,120
horse is jumping up and down this thing

766
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:31,039
is scratching on its legs

767
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:33,120
they really did whatever it was it left

768
00:27:36,710 --> 00:27:35,120
claw marks on this horse the rancher

769
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:36,720
jumps out of his truck and goes running

770
00:27:40,710 --> 00:27:38,640
toward it yelling and this creature

771
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:40,720
leaves up the corral

772
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:42,960
runs up skinwalker ridge ducks behind a

773
00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:45,200
rock and is gone they had an incident

774
00:27:49,669 --> 00:27:47,440
where they had these they had lost i

775
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:49,679
think 14 head of cattle very expensive

776
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,600
animals and the ranchers saying to his

777
00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:53,760
wife well look we lose any of these

778
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:56,559
bulls we got these four prized bulls 2

779
00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:59,520
000 pound animals fearless fierce

780
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:01,919
ferocious animals very expensive and

781
00:28:05,669 --> 00:28:03,520
they're all in the corral

782
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:05,679
and the rancher is in this in the truck

783
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:06,880
with his wife they're going to town to

784
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:09,360
get supplies come back in 40 minutes but

785
00:28:13,029 --> 00:28:11,760
he says to his wife as he leaves

786
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:13,039
if something happens to one of those

787
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:14,159
bulls

788
00:28:18,310 --> 00:28:15,919
we'll go under we'll lose everything

789
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:18,320
they come back in 35 40 minutes all four

790
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:20,799
of the bulls are gone they're panicking

791
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:22,640
where do they go i mean there's only one

792
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:24,799
road into this ranch one way in one way

793
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:26,799
out they jump out and start looking for

794
00:28:32,549 --> 00:28:28,799
the bulls trying to track them down

795
00:28:35,510 --> 00:28:32,559
in the corral is a trailer it was an old

796
00:28:38,389 --> 00:28:35,520
trailer a white trailer um with only one

797
00:28:41,110 --> 00:28:38,399
door in and he would use it to store uh

798
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:41,120
tools things of that sort and feed

799
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:42,720
at the top of the trailer is a little

800
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:44,720
great and he peeks in just out of the

801
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:46,240
out of the blue decides well what the

802
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:48,000
heck i'll look in there they look he

803
00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:49,760
looks into the the great at the top of

804
00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:52,480
the trailer all four bulls are inside

805
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,640
they're crammed in because it's not that

806
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:56,640
big they're all crammed in side to side

807
00:29:01,110 --> 00:28:58,960
and kind of in a trance he says he yells

808
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,120
to his wife i found the bulls they're in

809
00:29:05,269 --> 00:29:03,600
here now the door the only door that's

810
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:05,279
there is still locked it's secured by

811
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:08,480
this really thick uh wire there's no way

812
00:29:12,310 --> 00:29:10,720
to get those bulls into that trailer you

813
00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:12,320
couldn't do it with a forklift you

814
00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:14,240
couldn't do it with an army of people

815
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:16,080
how they got in there was as if they

816
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:18,080
were dematerialized as soon as the

817
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,080
rancher yells to the wife hey i found

818
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,640
them they wake up out of this trance

819
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,240
start kicking and moving around they

820
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:26,240
knocked a hole in the wall and they got

821
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:28,720
out when the needs team got there to

822
00:29:31,029 --> 00:29:29,840
investigate

823
00:29:33,110 --> 00:29:31,039
normally they were there all the time

824
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,120
but this weekend they were gone the

825
00:29:37,269 --> 00:29:35,360
entire corral had been magnetized

826
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:37,279
whatever technology was used to take

827
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:39,679
those bulls from the corral and stick

828
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:42,320
them in that trailer

829
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:45,120
it magnetized these metal poles so you

830
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,760
know none of this makes sense

831
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:49,520
how does it fit together

832
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:51,760
the commonality was skinwalker ranch the

833
00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:53,120
uinta basin

834
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:55,200
and it seemed like whatever the

835
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:56,720
intelligence was

836
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:58,720
was messing with it it wanted to

837
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,360
generate a reaction it seemed to

838
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:03,840
feed on fear it wanted to get an

839
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,600
emotional response and it was messing

840
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,360
with their heads the other way to look

841
00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:09,200
at it as as colin and i did when we

842
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:11,360
wrote the hunt for the skinwalker is

843
00:30:15,909 --> 00:30:13,919
it seemed to be a learning curve

844
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:15,919
it was trying to demonstrate that

845
00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:18,159
all these different kinds of paranormal

846
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:20,159
phenomena paranormal amusing air quotes

847
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:21,919
around it the things that we all

848
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:23,520
consider separate

849
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:24,640
mysteries

850
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,120
bigfoot cryptid creatures cattle

851
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:29,520
mutilations poltergeists

852
00:30:33,750 --> 00:30:31,600
um you know all those things were all

853
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:33,760
happening on one spot and it seemed as

854
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:35,840
if this intelligence was telling us

855
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:37,679
they're all related uh it's up to you to

856
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:38,880
figure out how

857
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:40,480
i'm sorry if i got off on too much of a

858
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:41,919
tangent there but uh i think the

859
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:43,840
strangest thing for me and the scariest

860
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,679
thing is what they what you call the

861
00:30:49,510 --> 00:30:47,600
hitchhiker effect where yes not only

862
00:30:51,909 --> 00:30:49,520
people that were there experiencing

863
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,919
things it seemed to latch onto them and

864
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:53,679
go home with them to their families and

865
00:30:58,549 --> 00:30:56,880
just torment everybody and uh i i've

866
00:31:00,070 --> 00:30:58,559
heard you mention that for years you

867
00:31:01,430 --> 00:31:00,080
would take home rocks and things like

868
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,440
that from the ranch

869
00:31:05,350 --> 00:31:03,279
trying to spur that type of phenomenon

870
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:05,360
on and then it happened

871
00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:06,880
and you know if you poke the bear enough

872
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:09,440
times one day the bear wakes up right so

873
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:10,320
tell us a little bit about the

874
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:11,600
hitchhiker effect and some of the

875
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:13,760
strangeness behind that so you know it

876
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:15,519
was not immediate obvious that that's

877
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:17,200
what was going on in the beginning there

878
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:18,880
were a couple of incidents but it wasn't

879
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:20,880
really a pattern until later you know

880
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:23,279
eric davis a physicist who had an

881
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:25,919
encounter on the property uh it's it

882
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:27,919
lingered whatever it was that he saw

883
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:30,240
that was i'll describe it it was a giant

884
00:31:33,269 --> 00:31:31,840
black cloud

885
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:33,279
that moved through the trees he had

886
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:34,960
columnists had seen it one night when

887
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,480
they're walking across the property and

888
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,559
it spoke to them it sort of took him

889
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:40,159
over it uh

890
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:41,760
there was another voice that came out of

891
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:43,600
him that column reported hearing it was

892
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:45,120
watching them and they were not welcome

893
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:46,399
is what it said

894
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:49,360
and um that whatever it was that got

895
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:51,200
into his head lingered with him for a

896
00:31:54,389 --> 00:31:52,000
while

897
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:54,399
that was not the most dramatic uh sort

898
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,799
of hitchhiker effect though uh that we

899
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:59,360
would come to learn about one of the

900
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:00,399
primary

901
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:05,039
family they finally left they got the

902
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:06,960
hell out of dodge got out of there moved

903
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:08,720
to a different state and it followed

904
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:09,840
them there

905
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:11,760
they had a very dramatic encounter that

906
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:13,519
all four of the family members saw

907
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:14,960
involving a

908
00:32:18,389 --> 00:32:17,440
ghost vehicle sort of that that smashed

909
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,399
into them

910
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,559
and went right through them uh so it

911
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:22,000
followed them it stuck around for a

912
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:23,360
couple of years i don't know if it's

913
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:25,039
still with them or not

914
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:27,360
but it it has lingered for more than a

915
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,760
decade with others so the nids guys

916
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:31,279
start noticing that there are something

917
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:33,200
that follows them home and they have

918
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:36,080
eruptions of activity at in their homes

919
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:37,600
in their personal lives when they're not

920
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:39,519
on the property and you're right i did

921
00:32:42,950 --> 00:32:41,279
try to engage with it i brought home

922
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:42,960
rocks and bits and pieces of this and

923
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:44,159
that

924
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:46,640
as souvenirs but also to see well well

925
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,799
something happened and it didn't for

926
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,399
quite a long time

927
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:52,159
needs goes away

928
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:55,600
after 2002 2003

929
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:57,760
because there really wasn't much else to

930
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,919
investigate uh you know whatever was

931
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:01,440
going on in the ranch

932
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:03,760
it sort of decided it was taking its

933
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:05,760
toys and going home it didn't want to be

934
00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:07,679
hunted it didn't want to be stalked so

935
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:09,519
it went underground and they basically

936
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:11,679
had nothing else to investigate there

937
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:13,679
might be something here or there

938
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,840
an odd sighting around the ranch some

939
00:33:19,669 --> 00:33:17,279
kind of strange phenomenon but not

940
00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:19,679
enough to keep the team there to justify

941
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,840
the expense and the time that it took to

942
00:33:25,669 --> 00:33:23,840
investigate invest

943
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:25,679
so that's why we were allowed to write

944
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:27,200
the book you know i'd wanted to

945
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:30,640
publicize it uh for a long time in 2002

946
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:32,559
i got the green light from bigelow to go

947
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,720
ahead and write a newspaper article that

948
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,880
exploded went all over the world

949
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:39,200
for this little weekly news magazine

950
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:40,320
that a

951
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,320
newspaper that's published in las vegas

952
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:44,880
las vegas mercury and that really opened

953
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:46,399
the floodgates to us to do the book

954
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:48,960
column and i um had been making notes

955
00:33:51,870 --> 00:33:50,720
and preparing for the possibility for a

956
00:33:54,310 --> 00:33:51,880
long time

957
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:54,320
2005 is when we finally put out hunt for

958
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:56,159
the skinwalker and you know then the

959
00:33:58,789 --> 00:33:57,519
story went all over the world and you

960
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:58,799
know people had a lot of trouble

961
00:34:02,149 --> 00:34:00,640
believing it well yeah welcome to the

962
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:02,159
club so did i i didn't know what to make

963
00:34:06,789 --> 00:34:04,640
of this stuff yeah you know it's how do

964
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,799
you how do you process it all what do

965
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:08,720
you make of it i didn't know they didn't

966
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:09,679
know

967
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:13,200
and then uh we can jump to assat but

968
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:14,960
uh there were consequences as a result

969
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:16,720
of nid's shutting down that eventually

970
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:18,720
the things came back you know

971
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:20,320
and the government took notice too when

972
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:21,919
you wrote your book that's when you were

973
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,800
contacted by dr james lukadzki and uh

974
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:26,320
people you know you think that this is

975
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:28,560
just fringe stuff or you know for the

976
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:30,720
scientific uh or people that like

977
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:32,320
science fiction and that sort of thing

978
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:34,159
the government was paying attention and

979
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:36,480
like you said they since the 40s they've

980
00:34:40,069 --> 00:34:38,000
been interested and whether it's been

981
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:40,079
public or not that's continued all the

982
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,359
way through uh and um you know to get to

983
00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:45,200
the point where it became awesome and

984
00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:47,839
then later on a tip as well so it's not

985
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:50,159
just like weird phenomenon and you know

986
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:51,200
cool things to talk about in

987
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:53,200
documentaries it's legitimately

988
00:34:57,990 --> 00:34:55,839
connected and hence your book you know

989
00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:58,000
skinwalkers at the at the pentagon like

990
00:35:02,390 --> 00:34:59,839
the government takes interest in this

991
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:02,400
it's strange enough that they need to to

992
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:04,320
continue that you know and he's not

993
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:05,760
scared to spend money like what was the

994
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,400
budget for assap 22 million dollars

995
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:10,079
something like that so yeah so maybe

996
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,520
talk a little bit about that where did

997
00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:13,520
that come from government uh interest

998
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:16,079
wise yeah so who could imagine that what

999
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:18,000
started as bigelow's private

1000
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:20,079
organization nids

1001
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:22,000
and my involvement because of the series

1002
00:35:25,589 --> 00:35:23,760
we did about lazar becoming friends with

1003
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:25,599
him that it would lead to all that we've

1004
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:28,240
seen now what is unfolding now in the

1005
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,920
uap ufo field is because of that work

1006
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:33,599
there's just no question about it

1007
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:35,520
because of the needs effort the book

1008
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:36,880
that we wrote

1009
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,119
we have so many changes in in terms of

1010
00:35:44,950 --> 00:35:41,520
the ufo uap topic

1011
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,960
in 2005 we put out the book 2007

1012
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:46,880
the word starts filtering out among

1013
00:35:50,310 --> 00:35:49,040
intelligence analysts in dc and at

1014
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:50,320
pentagon

1015
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:52,079
one of those who read the book was dr

1016
00:35:57,910 --> 00:35:55,119
jim mccatsky who was a rocket scientist

1017
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:57,920
analyst intelligence analyst for the dia

1018
00:36:02,390 --> 00:35:59,680
uh he reads the book he shares it with

1019
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,400
some other people who actually uh are

1020
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:04,560
included in the new book

1021
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:06,880
they take it to iraq they

1022
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:08,960
pass that book around to intelligence

1023
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,119
folks who are in iraq in the in the

1024
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:14,000
green zone come back and lakotsky was so

1025
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:16,320
intrigued he asked his uh his

1026
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,720
superiors at dia hey can i go after this

1027
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:20,480
and they said yeah

1028
00:36:24,950 --> 00:36:22,160
he writes to bigelow

1029
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:24,960
asks for permission to visit the ranch

1030
00:36:28,790 --> 00:36:26,800
and he comes out flies to las vegas they

1031
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:28,800
go to the ranch together they're there

1032
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:31,440
for a little over two hours but within

1033
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:33,839
the first half an hour 40 minutes

1034
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:36,640
lakowsky had an encounter he had a

1035
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:38,560
sighting that seemed to be created

1036
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:40,400
specifically for him

1037
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,839
a lot of people go to the property don't

1038
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:44,079
see anything me for example you know

1039
00:36:48,390 --> 00:36:45,920
i've been there dozens of times over the

1040
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:48,400
years i never saw a ufo i did see a

1041
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:50,160
light at one point during one of our

1042
00:36:52,950 --> 00:36:51,359
visits but

1043
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:52,960
who knows what it was have you ever felt

1044
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:55,040
anything george like like a presence or

1045
00:36:58,470 --> 00:36:57,040
anything yeah okay it's interesting it

1046
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:58,480
was maybe by

1047
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:00,560
by the time i was there had been there

1048
00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:02,560
six five six times

1049
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:04,240
uh we're sitting around

1050
00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:06,560
robert bigelow and i with the ranch uh

1051
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:08,320
managers the husband and wife and one of

1052
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:09,520
the neighbors

1053
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:12,000
and kind of talking about recent events

1054
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:13,839
and i said i blurted this out i said i

1055
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,520
don't want to sound stupid i know that

1056
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:17,119
this is really scary and people have

1057
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,720
been frightened out of their wits by

1058
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:20,880
things here but i feel good on this

1059
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:24,400
property i feel good i feel energized

1060
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:26,160
um

1061
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:28,480
you know alert and active and i don't

1062
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:32,079
feel intimidated or scared at all

1063
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:34,240
and then it passed around some of the

1064
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:36,160
other people who were there had the same

1065
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:38,560
experience the ranch manager an older

1066
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:41,280
man who at that time had been there for

1067
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:42,720
a couple of years he and his wife and he

1068
00:37:47,109 --> 00:37:44,400
said the same thing he said i get so

1069
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:47,119
jazzed about this he says i i'm i feel

1070
00:37:51,430 --> 00:37:49,119
like a teenager i start work in the

1071
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:51,440
morning i'm it's like i put my finger in

1072
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:53,119
an electric socket

1073
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:55,760
i work all day i don't want to stop he

1074
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:57,760
he had the same experience not everyone

1075
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:00,240
has that it seems like

1076
00:38:04,870 --> 00:38:03,200
the property sizes you up um

1077
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,880
i don't know how else to describe it

1078
00:38:07,990 --> 00:38:06,480
it's like the movie cocoon when

1079
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,000
everybody starts you know feeling

1080
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:10,400
younger and yeah yeah yeah but it's

1081
00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:12,640
almost that on the land right yeah uh

1082
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:14,720
but some people who go there with ill

1083
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:17,200
intent uh people who are

1084
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,400
they pack guns

1085
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:20,560
i'm going to take this on i'll show them

1086
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:23,280
a real cocky kind of attitude or who go

1087
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:25,760
there and are scared and have their own

1088
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:28,400
personal reasons for it the ranch sizes

1089
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:31,680
you up it it recognize that stuff maybe

1090
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:33,520
that's why i have not been allowed to

1091
00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:36,400
see anything um you know i don't you

1092
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:37,119
know

1093
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:38,640
bigelow i think for a long time never

1094
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,079
saw anything on the property either my

1095
00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:42,880
photographer matt adams is another one

1096
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:46,320
but the others who did have experiences

1097
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:47,680
learned that they were started taking

1098
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:50,400
things home with them um i didn't know

1099
00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:52,160
what to think of that until it happened

1100
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:53,359
to me

1101
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:57,280
sort of the pattern that colin kelleher

1102
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:59,440
describes in the in the new book is this

1103
00:39:03,589 --> 00:39:01,200
thing spreads like a virus through

1104
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:03,599
people's family there's a guy that we

1105
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:06,800
call axelrod who worked for an intel as

1106
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:09,119
an intelligence uh officer

1107
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:11,599
very experienced high-ranking guy he's

1108
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:14,000
one of five intelligence agents who went

1109
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:16,560
to the property during the asap bass

1110
00:39:20,630 --> 00:39:18,960
period who had an experience there and

1111
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:20,640
then took it home all five of them had

1112
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:22,720
an experience all five of them took it

1113
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:24,640
home with them and it spreads to their

1114
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:27,200
family axelrod

1115
00:39:30,230 --> 00:39:28,480
was one of three

1116
00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:30,240
badass people

1117
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:32,800
combat uh tested

1118
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:35,280
very tough people who were on the ranch

1119
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:37,280
i think it was 2009

1120
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:39,280
they're walking in the middle homestead

1121
00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:41,760
at night it's very dark out there

1122
00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:44,320
on the on even a moonlit night it's it's

1123
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:46,079
dark they're walking down the middle

1124
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:47,920
homestead and suddenly the temperature

1125
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:51,040
drops like 20 25 degrees it gets cold

1126
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:52,960
it's like they walked into a cold zone

1127
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:54,880
and then they see this thing in right in

1128
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,200
the path in front of them a black hole

1129
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,440
this big black hole in the sky it's

1130
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:00,960
darker than dark

1131
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:03,440
and they are they froze they i

1132
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,040
can't remember if they were frozen

1133
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:07,599
physically or they just froze mentally

1134
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:09,040
but they stopped there and it was

1135
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:10,480
communicating with them telling them

1136
00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:12,000
that they are not welcome they're being

1137
00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:14,000
watched and they're not welcome they all

1138
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:15,839
start backing up

1139
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:18,400
all three of those people tough as nails

1140
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:20,240
take this thing home with them

1141
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:22,720
um for axelrod

1142
00:40:28,069 --> 00:40:25,680
he he goes home and uh within a matter

1143
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:28,079
of weeks his family start experiencing

1144
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:29,440
these things this is what we call the

1145
00:40:34,150 --> 00:40:31,839
hitchhiker uh his wife was the first to

1146
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:34,160
see it she's she's looking out doing the

1147
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:35,920
dishes looking out in the yard and

1148
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:38,720
they're leaning on a tree is a wolf it's

1149
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:41,280
like seven eight feet tall leaning its

1150
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:43,920
front paws or arms are folded like this

1151
00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:45,520
it's leaning on a tree

1152
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:48,160
and it it is aware that she's seen it

1153
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:49,359
she doesn't know what to think she

1154
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:51,520
doesn't tell anybody about it it was a

1155
00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:53,440
couple days later her kids these two

1156
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:55,520
young men are looking out a different

1157
00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:57,839
window at the same area and they see it

1158
00:41:01,750 --> 00:40:59,520
and they scream for their mom she comes

1159
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,760
rushing out they all go outside i guess

1160
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:03,359
or to look at it

1161
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:05,280
and this thing takes off and it's not

1162
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:07,280
running away like a wolf on four legs

1163
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:08,800
it's running away on two legs they

1164
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:11,359
recall seeing the leaves uh where it's

1165
00:41:14,790 --> 00:41:12,720
kicking up leaves running down the

1166
00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:14,800
street they're kind of freaked out about

1167
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:16,560
it then inside the house they start

1168
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:19,040
seeing orbs these balls of light blue

1169
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,640
orbs like what had been seen at the

1170
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,480
ranch different colored orbs they're

1171
00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:24,800
hearing heavy footsteps like the ranch

1172
00:41:28,790 --> 00:41:27,040
family had had at skinwalker

1173
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:28,800
then they start seeing these entities

1174
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:30,560
these black entities at the bottom of

1175
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:32,560
their bed at night scares the hell out

1176
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:35,440
of them of course it would yeah and then

1177
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:37,040
you know they don't really tell anybody

1178
00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:38,400
about it they don't know what to make of

1179
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:40,560
it this guy still has a security

1180
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:41,760
clearance

1181
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:43,520
still working at the pentagon he doesn't

1182
00:41:47,109 --> 00:41:45,520
want this to get around but the

1183
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:47,119
trickster stuff that started happening

1184
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:49,920
they had a really big dog big tough dog

1185
00:41:53,349 --> 00:41:51,280
that ends up on the roof of the

1186
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:53,359
three-story house it's on the roof

1187
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:54,960
there's no way that dog can get up there

1188
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,480
it's just whatever the intelligence was

1189
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:59,040
was messing with and then the kids

1190
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,960
start telling their friends about it and

1191
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:02,800
it spreads to their friends

1192
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:05,280
uh it's the more it spreads the more

1193
00:42:10,470 --> 00:42:08,160
diluted the tech the uh phenomena become

1194
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:10,480
but it's almost traveling as column says

1195
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:11,920
like a virus

1196
00:42:17,829 --> 00:42:14,640
um that that guy axelrod

1197
00:42:19,910 --> 00:42:17,839
it's now been 11 years 12 years it's

1198
00:42:22,550 --> 00:42:19,920
still going on it's still going on for

1199
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:22,560
his family both in that location and

1200
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,560
other locations where they've lived

1201
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:26,880
how do you explain it you know

1202
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:28,800
ufos are hard enough uap it's hard

1203
00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:30,800
enough to get serious people to take a

1204
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:32,720
look at it but when you throw in this

1205
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:35,359
weirdness it becomes a mess that said

1206
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:36,640
you have to follow the evidence where it

1207
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:37,920
leads

1208
00:42:40,390 --> 00:42:39,280
it makes sense

1209
00:42:41,670 --> 00:42:40,400
sorry george didn't want to cut you off

1210
00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:41,680
it was just what you're saying there

1211
00:42:45,190 --> 00:42:43,760
with this ongoing phenomenon it makes

1212
00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:45,200
sense why there'd be so many different

1213
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:47,680
programs that seem to lap over the other

1214
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:49,839
you know nids to us app and you know

1215
00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:52,079
they they have over 200 000 reports with

1216
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:54,160
asap one of them being the skinwalker

1217
00:42:57,270 --> 00:42:56,240
ranch which is as i understand a huge

1218
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:57,280
report

1219
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:01,680
took everything that robert bigelow was

1220
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:04,240
doing and all that data i mean you know

1221
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:06,480
of many stories of people impacted on a

1222
00:43:09,910 --> 00:43:08,000
personal level and your colleagues in

1223
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:09,920
your circle imagine what the government

1224
00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:13,119
knows right there's 200 000 reports and

1225
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:14,720
and tying that into your new book like

1226
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,800
when i first got it i was super pumped

1227
00:43:20,069 --> 00:43:18,480
and then i read on the back

1228
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:20,079
and it says there's a disclosure skin

1229
00:43:23,589 --> 00:43:21,359
walkers at the pentagon has been

1230
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:23,599
reviewed by the us department of defense

1231
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:25,920
and cleared for public release so my

1232
00:43:29,829 --> 00:43:28,240
initial thought was oh no the government

1233
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:29,839
censored it like what is that i wanted

1234
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:31,920
to get the nitty-gritty on this thing as

1235
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:34,319
a huge skinwalker fan but the government

1236
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:35,920
went through it and then i've heard you

1237
00:43:39,990 --> 00:43:38,000
on other interviews say yeah we wanted

1238
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,000
to make this thing deep and thick with

1239
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:42,720
information and lots more reports and

1240
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:45,040
more specifics but they went through it

1241
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,480
and basically said what you could or

1242
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,560
couldn't do so to me

1243
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:50,480
this becomes way more intriguing because

1244
00:43:54,870 --> 00:43:52,720
it tells me that you hit a nerve you're

1245
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:54,880
on to something it's legit

1246
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,160
and it's worthy of some kind of

1247
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:58,480
censorship if it was science fiction

1248
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:59,680
they wouldn't care what you put in the

1249
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:00,560
book

1250
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:03,680
so it's so credible and so accurate that

1251
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,440
they had to oversee it even being

1252
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:07,040
published so i found that very

1253
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:09,040
intriguing well i mean everybody who

1254
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:10,880
worked for bass which was that's the

1255
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:12,720
organization that bigelow created that's

1256
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:15,119
the contractor that got the contract for

1257
00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:16,880
osap that's the name of the that's the

1258
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,640
acronym for the program

1259
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:20,560
operated by the defense intelligence

1260
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:22,560
agency the dia sorry for all the

1261
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:25,200
acronyms but it's a dia program called

1262
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:27,680
asap bass as the organization gets the

1263
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:29,839
contract they hired

1264
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:32,960
50 people full-time people investigators

1265
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:36,079
ex-government ex-cops uh investigators

1266
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:38,560
computer scientists it's the biggest ufo

1267
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,720
program that we know of that maybe

1268
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:42,480
there's something bigger somewhere but

1269
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,079
that's the biggest i mean you look at

1270
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:45,839
awesapp which might have had

1271
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:47,040
five people

1272
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:48,400
part-time

1273
00:44:52,790 --> 00:44:50,880
none of it was a full-time job for them

1274
00:44:54,630 --> 00:44:52,800
um you had project blue book you

1275
00:44:57,109 --> 00:44:54,640
remember seeing the the pr photos of

1276
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:57,119
their staff six or seven people

1277
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:00,000
tiny compared to this and it started as

1278
00:45:04,870 --> 00:45:02,480
a ufo program that was its primary focus

1279
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,880
that's the way it was sold to dia is

1280
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:06,800
this technology is something we don't

1281
00:45:09,349 --> 00:45:07,760
have

1282
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:09,359
we need to see if we can figure out what

1283
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:11,359
it is whether it's a threat to us and

1284
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:12,960
can we duplicate it so that was a

1285
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:14,800
primary function but they had the

1286
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:17,599
flexibility and dia was well aware of it

1287
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,680
to follow the evidence where it lit

1288
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:21,680
takes courage to do this you're not just

1289
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:24,319
looking at ufos which somehow ufos are

1290
00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:26,640
now respectable oh yeah that's that's a

1291
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:28,640
topic we can dig our teeth into but all

1292
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:30,480
the other stuff that's woo that's not

1293
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:33,200
respectable well asap bass had the

1294
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:34,880
courage to follow the evidence where it

1295
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:37,440
led and where it led is these phenomena

1296
00:45:40,470 --> 00:45:39,599
are all interrelated we don't understand

1297
00:45:43,349 --> 00:45:40,480
why

1298
00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:43,359
um but they where you have ufos you have

1299
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:45,920
this poltergeist type activity you have

1300
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:48,400
cattle mutilations you have tears in the

1301
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:50,720
sky where things come in and out

1302
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:53,520
from other realities other worlds um you

1303
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,200
know nobody's comfortable with this no

1304
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:57,599
one is happy that it led to all this

1305
00:46:03,190 --> 00:46:00,800
weirdness just a ufo study that leads to

1306
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:03,200
something much much stranger no one

1307
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,720
wanted that to happen it just that's

1308
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:06,560
where the evidence lit that was that's

1309
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:08,800
the brilliance of this asap program is

1310
00:46:13,030 --> 00:46:11,040
they had the courage and the approval to

1311
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:13,040
go ahead and follow it wherever it leads

1312
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:15,440
and that's what they did and the it's

1313
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:17,599
amazing what they did in just two years

1314
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:19,119
you know it's supposed to be a five-year

1315
00:46:22,630 --> 00:46:20,720
program and then we can talk about the

1316
00:46:24,870 --> 00:46:22,640
reasons that it went away but in that

1317
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:24,880
two years they created

1318
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:27,520
as you said the world's biggest ufo

1319
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:30,720
database gigantic uh you know i i don't

1320
00:46:33,829 --> 00:46:32,400
know that the public will ever get to

1321
00:46:35,750 --> 00:46:33,839
see it a lot of the information that's

1322
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:35,760
in that database is public but they

1323
00:46:40,069 --> 00:46:37,680
brought it all together so they have for

1324
00:46:41,829 --> 00:46:40,079
example all the mufon files they have

1325
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:41,839
all the blue book files all the stuff

1326
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:43,760
that they could get from government

1327
00:46:49,109 --> 00:46:45,599
our government and other governments for

1328
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:49,119
example brazil the asap team sent people

1329
00:46:54,390 --> 00:46:51,760
to brazil multiple times they got the

1330
00:46:56,790 --> 00:46:54,400
brazilian air force ufo files which are

1331
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:56,800
extensive kolaris the incident down

1332
00:47:01,270 --> 00:46:58,880
there where people were injured maybe

1333
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:01,280
killed that information all went to the

1334
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,280
database the russian files that i

1335
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:05,119
brought back hundreds of pages i made

1336
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:07,119
two trips there in the 90s hundreds of

1337
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:08,880
pages i gave it to them because you know

1338
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:11,440
i had done uh had interpreters look at

1339
00:47:14,710 --> 00:47:13,520
this material but didn't really know how

1340
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:14,720
to

1341
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:18,480
they did all that information is in

1342
00:47:22,630 --> 00:47:20,000
there they had four full-time

1343
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:22,640
interpreters they had military people to

1344
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:25,280
help explain put the pieces together

1345
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:26,960
about how large of an organization that

1346
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:29,359
was all that into this database i

1347
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:30,960
shouldn't call a database it's a data

1348
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,880
warehouse the person who was in charge

1349
00:47:37,030 --> 00:47:34,559
of that data warehouse which has

1350
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:37,040
multiple databases was jacques ballet he

1351
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:40,319
designed this amazing apparatus for

1352
00:47:45,190 --> 00:47:42,640
putting it all together in a way that it

1353
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:45,200
could be not just collected but collated

1354
00:47:49,829 --> 00:47:47,440
had ossap been allowed to continue the

1355
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:49,839
next step was to put artificial

1356
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:51,760
intelligence ai on top of the whole

1357
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,480
thing so that you could draw connections

1358
00:47:59,589 --> 00:47:56,960
uh correlations between all these

1359
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,599
seemingly seemingly disparate events

1360
00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:01,200
that was stopped it didn't happen but

1361
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:03,440
the raw data the the case files is still

1362
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:05,440
there it's an amazing amazing

1363
00:48:09,109 --> 00:48:07,680
accomplishment in just two years it was

1364
00:48:11,430 --> 00:48:09,119
stopped um

1365
00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:11,440
skinwalker was viewed as a living

1366
00:48:15,589 --> 00:48:13,839
laboratory it's not where the 22 million

1367
00:48:17,910 --> 00:48:15,599
dollars was spent they had a presence

1368
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:17,920
there they continued to investigate it

1369
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:20,160
but not just the ranch more importantly

1370
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:22,079
they devoted resources to the area

1371
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,079
around the ranch they sent investigators

1372
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,480
out into the community to talk to the

1373
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:28,319
neighbors to collect

1374
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:30,240
you you think skinwalker's weird the

1375
00:48:34,470 --> 00:48:32,160
stories about what happened to other

1376
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:34,480
people in the uintah basin are would

1377
00:48:40,150 --> 00:48:37,200
freak you out um that information was

1378
00:48:42,309 --> 00:48:40,160
collected for assap it's in the files uh

1379
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:42,319
we wanted to make as much as public as

1380
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:44,800
we could but it's it's sensitive because

1381
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:47,119
the people who provided the information

1382
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:49,280
did so excuse me it did so with the

1383
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:50,880
understanding that it would not be made

1384
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:51,760
public

1385
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:53,760
the same thing is true for the medical

1386
00:48:58,390 --> 00:48:56,079
database one of the durds one of the

1387
00:49:01,430 --> 00:48:58,400
reports written that's been made public

1388
00:49:03,750 --> 00:49:01,440
as part of the awsap program

1389
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:03,760
was kit green's study of physical

1390
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:06,720
effects on people who get close to a ufo

1391
00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:09,200
this is a very profound work and you

1392
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:11,520
know we describe in the book some very

1393
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:14,000
unusual encounters that people have had

1394
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:15,920
that prove deleterious to their health i

1395
00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:18,640
mean significant major health impacts of

1396
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:20,800
coming into contact with ufos including

1397
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:23,040
these blue orbs that flew through the

1398
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:25,680
body of a of a professional uh who was

1399
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:28,640
driving with a with their daughter uh in

1400
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:30,400
oregon uh

1401
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:32,480
the the nids team excuse me the assad

1402
00:49:37,109 --> 00:49:35,119
team was able to follow up it spent two

1403
00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:37,119
years tracking the medical consequences

1404
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:38,960
for this this person who had this

1405
00:49:42,870 --> 00:49:40,720
encounter and did so with dozens of

1406
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:42,880
other people that's an amazing body of

1407
00:49:47,829 --> 00:49:44,880
information that was put together for

1408
00:49:50,069 --> 00:49:47,839
asap by bass that the public generally

1409
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:50,079
has not seen yet a lot of them a lot of

1410
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:52,480
them develop these autoimmune disease or

1411
00:49:57,190 --> 00:49:54,720
disorders right because of being in

1412
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:57,200
close contact or having these orbs go

1413
00:50:02,630 --> 00:50:00,240
through them yeah yeah they also got

1414
00:50:04,390 --> 00:50:02,640
lupus and like hashimoto's syndrome as

1415
00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:04,400
well yeah really

1416
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:06,880
odd obscure diseases and you know this

1417
00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:08,480
also rings true for me i'm not going to

1418
00:50:12,549 --> 00:50:10,800
go into a lot of detail personal stuff

1419
00:50:14,950 --> 00:50:12,559
but i told you the hitchhiker came to my

1420
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:14,960
house it came to robert bigelow's house

1421
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:16,640
it went to column kelleher's house it

1422
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:19,040
came to me i had never seen anything

1423
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:22,240
that i know of um that i can remember

1424
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,400
in terms of ufos but my wife started

1425
00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:26,640
seeing them she saw these blue orbs over

1426
00:50:29,990 --> 00:50:27,920
our house

1427
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:30,000
i'm downstairs sitting here she's

1428
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:32,640
upstairs in our courtyard and called me

1429
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:34,079
and said come on up you got to see these

1430
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:35,520
things by the time i got up there they

1431
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:37,760
were gone and that's kind of a giddy

1432
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:39,359
kind of experience it was kind of cool

1433
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:42,160
wow ufos over our house and then then it

1434
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,480
got not so pleasant because something

1435
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,240
came into our room

1436
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:48,400
and it interacted with a way with her

1437
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:50,319
that scared the hell out of her just

1438
00:50:54,710 --> 00:50:52,800
really upset her same exact thing

1439
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:54,720
happened to mrs bigelow who passed away

1440
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:56,720
two years ago something very similar

1441
00:51:00,309 --> 00:50:58,960
happened at colin keller's house and to

1442
00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:00,319
other people who'd spent a lot of time

1443
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:02,240
at the ranch you know and it made me

1444
00:51:05,349 --> 00:51:03,520
feel a little guilty because i'd been

1445
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:05,359
bringing all this stuff home and trying

1446
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:06,800
to engage with it

1447
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:08,079
i don't do that anymore i haven't been

1448
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:09,359
to the ranch in a couple of years i'm

1449
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:11,520
not sure i'll go back but uh you know

1450
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:13,920
it's it's i don't want it to spread and

1451
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,800
cause further problems at my house

1452
00:51:20,309 --> 00:51:18,400
but there are some medical consequences

1453
00:51:21,349 --> 00:51:20,319
for my wife that may or may not be

1454
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:21,359
related

1455
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:23,440
that took courage to look into all that

1456
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:26,160
stuff we wanted to put the story out

1457
00:51:31,109 --> 00:51:28,480
didn't want ossap to die but once it was

1458
00:51:32,549 --> 00:51:31,119
killed for a variety of reasons

1459
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:32,559
we wanted to put the story out i had

1460
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:33,920
been sitting on this stuff for a long

1461
00:51:37,510 --> 00:51:35,280
time you know when the new york times

1462
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:37,520
story came out and it's going to reveal

1463
00:51:42,069 --> 00:51:39,359
this thing about the program and it

1464
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:42,079
turns out to be they did a story on atip

1465
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:43,920
which is not this program it's it has

1466
00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:46,240
nothing very little to do with it had

1467
00:51:50,549 --> 00:51:48,480
something to do with it it's sort of a

1468
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:50,559
successor to asap a much smaller

1469
00:51:55,030 --> 00:51:52,960
successor uh the new york times did that

1470
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:55,040
story which i had i deferred to them you

1471
00:51:58,230 --> 00:51:56,240
know i could have done gone with

1472
00:51:59,109 --> 00:51:58,240
something i had a lot of information i

1473
00:52:01,910 --> 00:51:59,119
didn't

1474
00:52:04,309 --> 00:52:01,920
i i'm glad in a sense that because of

1475
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,319
their platform their reputation the

1476
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:06,480
story had a lot more punch to it it was

1477
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:08,480
taken more seriously

1478
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:11,040
by the members of congress by higher-ups

1479
00:52:14,870 --> 00:52:13,200
in the government and the general public

1480
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:14,880
i think than anything i could have put

1481
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,319
out so it was a real i have great

1482
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:18,559
respect for leslie kane and ralph

1483
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:21,200
blumenthal uh who co-wrote the story

1484
00:52:25,190 --> 00:52:24,000
with helene um and you know i'm glad

1485
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:25,200
that it

1486
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:27,760
led to where it's led but it was wrong

1487
00:52:31,829 --> 00:52:29,040
you know we can get into that it was

1488
00:52:33,829 --> 00:52:31,839
incorrect all sap was the program if it

1489
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:33,839
had been allowed to continue

1490
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:35,839
who knows where we'd be now you know but

1491
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:37,359
it wasn't it was killed

1492
00:52:41,349 --> 00:52:39,200
and it's a shame all that information

1493
00:52:43,430 --> 00:52:41,359
sitting in that database

1494
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:43,440
98 of it has never been seen by the

1495
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:45,440
public so we set out to write what we

1496
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:46,960
could for the book

1497
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:48,640
we had to get approval because all those

1498
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:49,920
guys who worked on the program had

1499
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:52,000
security clearances the agreement with

1500
00:52:55,109 --> 00:52:53,520
the dia was

1501
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,119
you don't publish anything unless we

1502
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:57,119
sign off on it so we wrote a wrote the

1503
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:58,559
book

1504
00:53:01,750 --> 00:53:00,240
went right up to the edge of what we

1505
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:01,760
could make public

1506
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,760
it was still just a small percentage of

1507
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:05,520
really all the data

1508
00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:07,680
we included a lot of uh specific

1509
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:09,839
incidents the names had to be changed

1510
00:53:14,069 --> 00:53:12,160
the names of personnel still attached

1511
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:14,079
the pentagon had to be changed in

1512
00:53:18,390 --> 00:53:16,240
general they let us write what we wanted

1513
00:53:20,470 --> 00:53:18,400
with only some changes some things that

1514
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:20,480
were were kicked out of the book it took

1515
00:53:25,829 --> 00:53:21,839
14 months

1516
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,839
pentagon wow this is not the pentagon

1517
00:53:28,630 --> 00:53:27,280
saying we agree with everything that's

1518
00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,640
in the book

1519
00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:30,400
they're not endorsing it

1520
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:32,559
but they are allowing us to report it

1521
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:33,760
based on the agreement that have been

1522
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:36,720
worked out between mr bigelow and dia

1523
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,520
yeah so since 2017 a lot of people know

1524
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,800
about this information now there's

1525
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:43,119
history channel document documentaries

1526
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:44,720
as well as the skinwalker ranch which is

1527
00:53:49,829 --> 00:53:47,280
now owned by brendan fugle and and you

1528
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:49,839
see lou elizondo on his unidentified

1529
00:53:54,950 --> 00:53:52,079
program so kind of how has it come from

1530
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:54,960
asap and now atip which you know lou

1531
00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:56,559
elizondo stepped down from because he

1532
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,640
really wanted to spread the message how

1533
00:54:01,910 --> 00:54:00,480
has there been any cooperation there do

1534
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:01,920
they still have that cache of

1535
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:04,079
information that they can use like was

1536
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:05,680
it all for nothing or is that still

1537
00:54:09,589 --> 00:54:07,440
being hidden somewhere

1538
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:09,599
and people using it to kind of fuel the

1539
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,680
motion forward oh it's it's still very

1540
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:13,920
much there we are told and i think we

1541
00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:15,920
mentioned it in the book is that the

1542
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:18,079
current intelligence agencies are using

1543
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:21,200
that database atib did have access to it

1544
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:23,440
uh you know lou elizondo

1545
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:25,760
as we described he was interacting with

1546
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:27,920
the awsat people he had been approached

1547
00:54:31,030 --> 00:54:30,000
to be a counterintelligence officer for

1548
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:31,040
ossap

1549
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:33,599
uh you know provided uh you know senator

1550
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:34,800
harry reid

1551
00:54:39,190 --> 00:54:37,920
whose uh sponsorship got asap got the 22

1552
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:39,200
million dollars

1553
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:40,960
wanted to create a special access

1554
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,839
program a sap and in 2009 he wrote to

1555
00:54:47,829 --> 00:54:45,839
the pentagon said i think they've made a

1556
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:47,839
lot of progress in the last year we'd

1557
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:50,319
like to make it a sap so that there's

1558
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,079
fewer eyes on it so we don't have to

1559
00:54:56,789 --> 00:54:54,400
compete for the money every year

1560
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:56,799
so it can continue indefinitely and of

1561
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:58,880
course somebody leaked that letter

1562
00:55:02,870 --> 00:55:00,640
suddenly the rest of the pentagon which

1563
00:55:04,829 --> 00:55:02,880
had no idea that this program was

1564
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:04,839
underway they had no idea it was

1565
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:07,040
compartmentalized suddenly everyone

1566
00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:08,720
knows about it and they start asking

1567
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:09,680
questions

1568
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:11,440
uh hey maybe we should go after this

1569
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,480
this money others were worried gosh what

1570
00:55:19,270 --> 00:55:16,400
if this gets out that we're involved in

1571
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:19,280
study of ufos and ghosts and creatures

1572
00:55:21,829 --> 00:55:20,720
it's going to be on the front page of

1573
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:21,839
new york times would be a big

1574
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:24,000
embarrassment of course it did end up on

1575
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:25,839
the front page of the new york times and

1576
00:55:29,430 --> 00:55:27,119
then others

1577
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,440
within the pentagon

1578
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:31,440
these religious fundamentalists in key

1579
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,680
positions were concerned when they read

1580
00:55:37,349 --> 00:55:35,599
about what was going on in skinwalker

1581
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:37,359
they thought it was demonic

1582
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,119
they thought that by studying this by

1583
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:41,440
engaging with it by interacting with it

1584
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:43,760
that we were inviting it into the world

1585
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:45,280
that we were

1586
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:46,480
you know potentially going to wreak

1587
00:55:52,309 --> 00:55:49,760
havoc on humanity by these demonic

1588
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:52,319
satanic spirits that would come in and

1589
00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:53,839
you'd think well that's pretty

1590
00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:55,760
ridiculous for high-level intelligence

1591
00:56:00,549 --> 00:55:58,480
people to be basing national policy on

1592
00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:00,559
their religious beliefs but the fact is

1593
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:02,240
now you know looking back on it we don't

1594
00:56:06,069 --> 00:56:04,160
know what this intelligence is maybe it

1595
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:06,079
is demonic or satanic or something like

1596
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,480
we don't know we'd like to we started

1597
00:56:12,390 --> 00:56:10,480
out thinking was extraterrestrial we

1598
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:12,400
don't think that anymore it doesn't fit

1599
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,079
and maybe it's extraterrestrial

1600
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,319
interdimensional time travelers demons

1601
00:56:20,069 --> 00:56:18,400
all mixed into one but we don't really

1602
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:20,079
know that was why awesome should have

1603
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:22,079
been allowed to continue uh it was cut

1604
00:56:25,750 --> 00:56:23,920
off before it could really get answers

1605
00:56:27,190 --> 00:56:25,760
but it made incredible progress you know

1606
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:27,200
for a while

1607
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:28,160
i don't know that i answered your

1608
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,319
question i got off got a tangent there

1609
00:56:34,630 --> 00:56:32,400
it it begs the question whether or not

1610
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:34,640
these um you know

1611
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:37,200
uap show up on the ranch because of the

1612
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:38,799
activity that's taking place on the

1613
00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:40,799
ranch or if the activity on the ranch is

1614
00:56:43,589 --> 00:56:42,480
taking place because these uaps are

1615
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:43,599
showing up

1616
00:56:46,230 --> 00:56:44,720
so

1617
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:46,240
or they might not even be related

1618
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:48,400
they're just related somehow but they uh

1619
00:56:51,589 --> 00:56:49,760
you know it begs the question whether or

1620
00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:51,599
not the activity is taking place and

1621
00:56:55,990 --> 00:56:53,680
they're just monitoring it

1622
00:56:58,710 --> 00:56:56,000
you know i uh i've sort of my

1623
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:58,720
perspectives has have changed several

1624
00:57:02,309 --> 00:57:00,559
times you know since all this stuff i i

1625
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,319
don't really i know a lot more and

1626
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:04,799
understand a lot less so whatever i uh

1627
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:07,200
offer as a suggestion here is just that

1628
00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:09,280
a suggestion i'm not as smart as these

1629
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,680
other guys who are have phds that are

1630
00:57:15,510 --> 00:57:13,440
taking on these big questions i've been

1631
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:15,520
around in a long time but they're these

1632
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:17,599
big brainiacs who have tackled these

1633
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:19,760
these issues and questions understand a

1634
00:57:24,390 --> 00:57:22,000
lot better than i have so i i

1635
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:24,400
you know take that with a grain of salt

1636
00:57:28,950 --> 00:57:26,960
i i think that the uh the phenomenon is

1637
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:28,960
there for us to see right i think it

1638
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:30,880
happens on the ranch

1639
00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:32,240
i don't i'm not sure what happened if

1640
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:34,000
there's nobody there to watch it it

1641
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:36,400
seemed to be for us to see it you know

1642
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:38,079
you would ask does any of this

1643
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:40,559
information carry over from osap to atep

1644
00:57:44,630 --> 00:57:42,559
and beyond the answer is yes

1645
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:44,640
perfect example that is tic tac

1646
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:46,720
i i tend to think that tic-tac that

1647
00:57:50,549 --> 00:57:48,400
object was sitting there

1648
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:50,559
for us to see it you can't tell me

1649
00:57:53,910 --> 00:57:52,319
there's a giant nuclear strike force

1650
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:53,920
that i uh

1651
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:55,839
you know this giant uh aircraft carrier

1652
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:57,200
in a battle group

1653
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:58,319
sitting there

1654
00:58:02,150 --> 00:58:00,319
and this ufo is out zipping around

1655
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:02,160
floating over something that's

1656
00:58:06,309 --> 00:58:03,520
boiling the sea

1657
00:58:07,430 --> 00:58:06,319
oh gosh oh is that a u.s warplane i

1658
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:07,440
didn't know you guys were in the

1659
00:58:10,630 --> 00:58:08,960
neighborhood i don't believe it i i

1660
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:10,640
think they knew that i think it was a

1661
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:12,880
performance yeah which is what a lot of

1662
00:58:16,390 --> 00:58:14,319
what happened at the ranch seemed to be

1663
00:58:19,270 --> 00:58:16,400
a performance a display it's something

1664
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:19,280
there for us to see that tic tac case

1665
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:22,400
was the first big investigation by asap

1666
00:58:26,309 --> 00:58:24,160
the world knows about it not because of

1667
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:26,319
atip but because asap you know they

1668
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:29,200
collected the files they created the the

1669
00:58:33,829 --> 00:58:31,200
the video they got uh they secured it

1670
00:58:37,270 --> 00:58:33,839
and analyzed it there's a report in the

1671
00:58:38,230 --> 00:58:37,280
asap files that i have seen

1672
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:38,240
that is

1673
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:40,240
remarkable in terms of the detail they

1674
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:42,559
went into an analysis of the tic tac

1675
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:44,960
incident and its capabilities

1676
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:47,359
that was the very first uh thing that

1677
00:58:51,349 --> 00:58:49,040
they really launched and the reason the

1678
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:51,359
world knows about it is because asap

1679
00:58:55,829 --> 00:58:54,240
yes lou elizondo interacted with the the

1680
00:58:58,150 --> 00:58:55,839
osap guys

1681
00:58:59,990 --> 00:58:58,160
but it was long before atip existed the

1682
00:59:02,470 --> 00:59:00,000
first time the atip

1683
00:59:03,430 --> 00:59:02,480
name that acronym appeared was in harry

1684
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:03,440
reid's

1685
00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:06,400
um letter to the pentagon in 2009 and

1686
00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:08,079
they they used that name and just made

1687
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:09,760
it up because they didn't want the rest

1688
00:59:13,829 --> 00:59:11,839
of the pentagon to know what the real

1689
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:13,839
name was so they couldn't come after it

1690
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:15,920
now they got out anyway but uh you know

1691
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:18,720
atip after osap went away blue elizondo

1692
00:59:23,829 --> 00:59:21,520
to his credit uh resurrects it on a much

1693
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:23,839
smaller scale he keeps some of the same

1694
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:25,920
people who had interacted with and

1695
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:28,160
worked with ossap

1696
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:30,400
different agencies some of them of whom

1697
00:59:34,470 --> 00:59:32,480
had been to skinwalker ranch some of

1698
00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:34,480
whom worked directly on the tic tac

1699
00:59:39,990 --> 00:59:36,960
report he kept them in the loop

1700
00:59:42,470 --> 00:59:40,000
and they informally had this confederacy

1701
00:59:45,829 --> 00:59:42,480
of of experts who would take a look at

1702
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:45,839
new cases of ufos involving the military

1703
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:47,839
that was their purview they didn't look

1704
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:49,680
at any of these broader things that that

1705
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:51,760
we're talking about to my knowledge i

1706
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:53,200
don't know that they produced a single

1707
00:59:58,150 --> 00:59:55,920
report have you ever seen one

1708
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:58,160
i have never seen an atep written report

1709
01:00:02,950 --> 01:00:00,000
of any kind no and no one else has

1710
01:00:04,710 --> 01:00:02,960
either i am not disparaging that i have

1711
01:00:07,190 --> 01:00:04,720
great admiration for lou he's a friend

1712
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:07,200
of mine he has single-handedly changed

1713
01:00:13,829 --> 01:00:10,319
this uh topic flipped it on its head

1714
01:00:16,870 --> 01:00:13,839
has blazed a path at considerable uh

1715
01:00:19,750 --> 01:00:16,880
personal expense and and repercussions

1716
01:00:21,910 --> 01:00:19,760
to him it's it's tortured him and it's

1717
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:21,920
been a mess for his family

1718
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,760
he has great i have great respect for

1719
01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:25,520
him but you know a lot of the people

1720
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:27,680
around that have tried to diminish asap

1721
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:29,440
pretend that it wasn't real

1722
01:00:33,670 --> 01:00:31,520
you know what we need is a real program

1723
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:33,680
uh not that offset thing well you've got

1724
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:35,359
a program in government that had more

1725
01:00:39,430 --> 01:00:37,599
than 50 full-time investigators let me

1726
01:00:41,190 --> 01:00:39,440
see it if there's a program in

1727
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:41,200
government that produced more reports

1728
01:00:46,549 --> 01:00:44,319
than the hundred documents that that

1729
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:46,559
asap produced let's see it i haven't

1730
01:00:50,630 --> 01:00:49,040
seen it uh you know i i think that a lot

1731
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:50,640
of that information that was gathered by

1732
01:00:55,670 --> 01:00:53,599
ossap was used by atip and i think it

1733
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:55,680
was used by what became the uap task

1734
01:00:58,630 --> 01:00:57,839
force and i think it's now in the hands

1735
01:01:01,430 --> 01:00:58,640
of

1736
01:01:03,829 --> 01:01:01,440
whatever this new program this e-i-e-i-o

1737
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:03,839
whatever the heck yeah

1738
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:05,520
i think it's in their hands so it is

1739
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:07,760
being put to use how much i can't say

1740
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:10,160
but you know that that series of events

1741
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:12,240
what started with mids

1742
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:14,559
there's a direct line because before

1743
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:17,440
where we are now the needs begat's

1744
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:18,559
awesome

1745
01:01:23,990 --> 01:01:21,040
which investigates skinwalker looks at

1746
01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:24,000
tic tac that leads to a tip that leads

1747
01:01:27,750 --> 01:01:25,839
to new york times and what we have now

1748
01:01:29,349 --> 01:01:27,760
and uh you know it's

1749
01:01:31,190 --> 01:01:29,359
people who try to diminish the

1750
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:31,200
importance of this program it's because

1751
01:01:34,789 --> 01:01:33,280
they got their own agenda they they

1752
01:01:37,270 --> 01:01:34,799
maybe they're pushing their own program

1753
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:37,280
i don't know but um i hope that your

1754
01:01:40,710 --> 01:01:38,960
listeners will keep in mind what the

1755
01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:40,720
true legacy of this is and if it had

1756
01:01:43,990 --> 01:01:42,400
been allowed to continue we might have

1757
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:44,000
some answers by now

1758
01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:46,240
in my opinion george sorry jason it's

1759
01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:47,760
it's because of you it's because of the

1760
01:01:51,589 --> 01:01:50,319
work that you've done since the 80s back

1761
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:51,599
when you know you mentioned that now

1762
01:01:55,589 --> 01:01:53,520
ufo's the topic you can sink your teeth

1763
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:55,599
into before you'd be made a laughing

1764
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:57,359
stock of people have had their careers

1765
01:02:01,270 --> 01:01:59,599
destroyed including bob lazar you know

1766
01:02:03,029 --> 01:02:01,280
they go after you and your family and

1767
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:03,039
your business and you know whether it's

1768
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,359
misinformation disinformation or what

1769
01:02:08,950 --> 01:02:07,200
it's affected a lot of people negatively

1770
01:02:12,230 --> 01:02:08,960
where they really had nothing to gain by

1771
01:02:15,510 --> 01:02:12,240
coming out and more lose than win kind

1772
01:02:17,270 --> 01:02:15,520
of thing so i think your humility is uh

1773
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:17,280
is massive because i think if it wasn't

1774
01:02:21,670 --> 01:02:19,200
for the work from you and a few other

1775
01:02:23,430 --> 01:02:21,680
people over the last 35 years yeah it

1776
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:23,440
wouldn't have got so mainstream like it

1777
01:02:27,750 --> 01:02:25,839
is now where there's programs on tv

1778
01:02:29,589 --> 01:02:27,760
regularly recorded and you have all

1779
01:02:31,589 --> 01:02:29,599
these big names now that are and have

1780
01:02:33,510 --> 01:02:31,599
they have good intentions as well but if

1781
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:33,520
it wasn't for people like you sort of

1782
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:35,440
you know blazing that trail i don't

1783
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:37,599
think we'd be nearly as far i mean you

1784
01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:39,839
were like the james bond of uap studies

1785
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:41,760
man you went to russia and smuggled out

1786
01:02:45,990 --> 01:02:43,920
documents and you know shared them with

1787
01:02:48,069 --> 01:02:46,000
ned if you did that nowadays that's a

1788
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:48,079
big deal right i mean security was

1789
01:02:52,870 --> 01:02:50,720
always there but um you're just fearless

1790
01:02:54,390 --> 01:02:52,880
well that leads me to my question i was

1791
01:02:57,510 --> 01:02:54,400
going to ask you george like how does

1792
01:02:59,910 --> 01:02:57,520
that feel haven't had a career that long

1793
01:03:01,349 --> 01:02:59,920
and i i mean i know you've been studying

1794
01:03:03,029 --> 01:03:01,359
this subject and you were quite like you

1795
01:03:04,710 --> 01:03:03,039
were saying adamant on telling people

1796
01:03:07,349 --> 01:03:04,720
about it but there was still some stigma

1797
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:07,359
for a long time i'm a kid from the 80s

1798
01:03:11,190 --> 01:03:09,119
and i know the 80s you mentioned flying

1799
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:11,200
saucers people just you know laughed at

1800
01:03:14,150 --> 01:03:12,000
you

1801
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:14,160
same thing with the 90s 2000s we got a

1802
01:03:17,589 --> 01:03:15,599
little bit more progressive and now

1803
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:17,599
we're like hey they're here

1804
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:19,760
but for you to have like stuck it out

1805
01:03:24,630 --> 01:03:22,240
that long um how does it feel now having

1806
01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:24,640
the subject brought up and having people

1807
01:03:30,870 --> 01:03:28,160
fight so hard now for more disclosure

1808
01:03:32,789 --> 01:03:30,880
you know okay after the awesome stories

1809
01:03:34,549 --> 01:03:32,799
and the tic tac story and then later the

1810
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:34,559
awesome stuff came out people would say

1811
01:03:39,109 --> 01:03:37,039
to me well do you feel vindicated now

1812
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:39,119
and i don't know how to respond to it

1813
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,559
and that i didn't know i needed

1814
01:03:44,870 --> 01:03:42,480
vindication i was doing my job you know

1815
01:03:46,069 --> 01:03:44,880
in the beginning i was out on a limb

1816
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:46,079
pretty far

1817
01:03:50,630 --> 01:03:47,440
by myself

1818
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:50,640
it was a kind of a long lonely slog

1819
01:03:54,789 --> 01:03:52,000
in terms of the

1820
01:03:56,470 --> 01:03:54,799
you know i see people who uh want to

1821
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:56,480
take a shot at me on social media

1822
01:04:01,029 --> 01:03:58,480
they'll often say well gosh look at what

1823
01:04:03,190 --> 01:04:01,039
it did for your career well you know my

1824
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:03,200
perspective on what it did for my career

1825
01:04:07,349 --> 01:04:05,280
might be different from how a ufo person

1826
01:04:09,510 --> 01:04:07,359
on twitter might see because it's done

1827
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:09,520
me no favors you know it hasn't been

1828
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:11,440
some big boon to my career i had a good

1829
01:04:16,710 --> 01:04:13,920
career without ufos

1830
01:04:18,789 --> 01:04:16,720
and i'm known for a lot of other stories

1831
01:04:21,270 --> 01:04:18,799
this is the story i'm known for in ufo

1832
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:21,280
world you know people you know me in ufo

1833
01:04:25,750 --> 01:04:23,280
world but outside of it i'm known for

1834
01:04:27,990 --> 01:04:25,760
other things and uh it's done my career

1835
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:28,000
no no favor i'm lucky that i've worked

1836
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:29,039
for

1837
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:33,440
know me and they trust me and they gave

1838
01:04:37,589 --> 01:04:35,119
me a great freedom to pursue it where it

1839
01:04:39,029 --> 01:04:37,599
needed to be pursued but anybody else i

1840
01:04:41,349 --> 01:04:39,039
think a different news organization

1841
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:41,359
would have stopped it a long time ago i

1842
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:43,920
it's so lucky you know looking back on

1843
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:46,559
it from this vantage point of where it's

1844
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:49,200
led i am proud of it i'm proud of it but

1845
01:04:54,069 --> 01:04:52,160
it's been it's been a tough slog and um

1846
01:04:56,230 --> 01:04:54,079
and i think it probably put a cap on my

1847
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:56,240
career in terms of where i could go i

1848
01:04:59,109 --> 01:04:58,319
don't i don't mind that i do it the same

1849
01:05:01,190 --> 01:04:59,119
way

1850
01:05:03,910 --> 01:05:01,200
uh i'm so fortunate to have been able to

1851
01:05:05,829 --> 01:05:03,920
meet some of these people along the way

1852
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,839
uh lazar

1853
01:05:10,390 --> 01:05:07,920
robert bigelow colin kelleher jim

1854
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:10,400
lakatsky lou elizondo

1855
01:05:15,829 --> 01:05:12,079
and somebody else whose name we haven't

1856
01:05:17,510 --> 01:05:15,839
mentioned is tom delong turned along

1857
01:05:19,430 --> 01:05:17,520
massively important to all that's

1858
01:05:21,910 --> 01:05:19,440
unfolded now you know tom de long

1859
01:05:24,549 --> 01:05:21,920
creates ttsa it gives louis elizondo a

1860
01:05:28,230 --> 01:05:24,559
place to land lou can leave the pentagon

1861
01:05:29,750 --> 01:05:28,240
he goes there he's got a platform um

1862
01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:29,760
i don't know how the world would have

1863
01:05:34,309 --> 01:05:31,440
been different if tom had not created

1864
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:34,319
ttsa and i know it it went away you know

1865
01:05:39,270 --> 01:05:36,640
in in the and it it fell short of the

1866
01:05:42,470 --> 01:05:39,280
goals it said a long time ago but having

1867
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:42,480
jim semavan hal put off uh de long chris

1868
01:05:46,710 --> 01:05:44,960
mellon uh the guy from lockheed all

1869
01:05:48,230 --> 01:05:46,720
those guys in one place and then getting

1870
01:05:49,910 --> 01:05:48,240
the new york times to do the story

1871
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:49,920
that's a heavy lift that's an amazing

1872
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:51,039
thing

1873
01:05:55,109 --> 01:05:52,799
all the credit in the world to tom but

1874
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:55,119
for me be able to hook up to meet with

1875
01:05:59,109 --> 01:05:57,440
tom uh and then these amazing other

1876
01:06:00,069 --> 01:05:59,119
people that he worked with

1877
01:06:02,150 --> 01:06:00,079
to

1878
01:06:03,829 --> 01:06:02,160
become friends with jeremy corbell who's

1879
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:03,839
you know done some amazing work we

1880
01:06:08,950 --> 01:06:06,480
partnered on some things um matt adams

1881
01:06:10,950 --> 01:06:08,960
my photographer who's been with me for

1882
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:10,960
20 20-plus years

1883
01:06:15,910 --> 01:06:13,680
i i'm so proud of the work that's done

1884
01:06:17,910 --> 01:06:15,920
and where the progress that we've made

1885
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:17,920
and i appreciate you you recognize that

1886
01:06:21,349 --> 01:06:19,920
i have had a contribution to it but it

1887
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:21,359
you know people who think this is one

1888
01:06:25,990 --> 01:06:24,240
big party and it's you know i did it to

1889
01:06:27,349 --> 01:06:26,000
uh juice my career they don't know what

1890
01:06:29,270 --> 01:06:27,359
the hell they're talking about well

1891
01:06:31,829 --> 01:06:29,280
you're not you're not out there charging

1892
01:06:34,390 --> 01:06:31,839
people thousands of dollars for seances

1893
01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:34,400
at night trying to i will get away with

1894
01:06:38,870 --> 01:06:36,319
it i'm happy to do that yeah they're

1895
01:06:40,710 --> 01:06:38,880
taking orders if they come in yeah i'd

1896
01:06:43,029 --> 01:06:40,720
probably still sign up just to hang out

1897
01:06:44,309 --> 01:06:43,039
but uh yeah obviously some people are

1898
01:06:46,950 --> 01:06:44,319
doing up with their careers and you're

1899
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:46,960
not one of those people and like

1900
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:49,200
ufology even on twitter is quite a mess

1901
01:06:52,870 --> 01:06:51,039
i've been looking at uh what's going on

1902
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:52,880
there and people are just

1903
01:06:56,309 --> 01:06:54,480
they're always opinionated that's the

1904
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:56,319
thing everybody's got an opinion but it

1905
01:06:59,589 --> 01:06:58,079
doesn't help uh you followed you it

1906
01:07:01,990 --> 01:06:59,599
doesn't help the subject forward if

1907
01:07:04,789 --> 01:07:02,000
we're all bickering at each other right

1908
01:07:06,789 --> 01:07:04,799
over yeah accolades or falsehoods or

1909
01:07:09,670 --> 01:07:06,799
whatever so yeah that's that's true i

1910
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:09,680
mean i i see those conversations i some

1911
01:07:14,069 --> 01:07:12,079
sometimes after i somebody has taken

1912
01:07:16,950 --> 01:07:14,079
shots at me for weeks at a time every

1913
01:07:18,630 --> 01:07:16,960
day i i get weak and i respond i regret

1914
01:07:20,630 --> 01:07:18,640
it i always regret it

1915
01:07:22,309 --> 01:07:20,640
you know just let it go

1916
01:07:24,789 --> 01:07:22,319
i'm glad there's a dialogue and a

1917
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:24,799
give-and-take and opinions but to think

1918
01:07:28,630 --> 01:07:26,960
that this is somehow today is more of a

1919
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:28,640
mess than it's ever been it's always

1920
01:07:33,109 --> 01:07:30,480
been a mess it's always been this way

1921
01:07:35,430 --> 01:07:33,119
you know it's the the most back

1922
01:07:38,390 --> 01:07:35,440
stabbing infighting

1923
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:38,400
inbred nasty little arena i suppose

1924
01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:40,400
there are other topics like that but man

1925
01:07:45,750 --> 01:07:41,760
this is

1926
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:45,760
you've got to have thick skin to dive

1927
01:07:49,510 --> 01:07:47,280
into this i've tried to develop that

1928
01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:49,520
over the years and just got to keep your

1929
01:07:54,069 --> 01:07:51,839
your eye on the on the ball and moving

1930
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:54,079
forward and you know there's going to be

1931
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:56,640
slings and arrows there's a there's a

1932
01:08:01,589 --> 01:07:59,039
phrase that i've used before about uh

1933
01:08:03,430 --> 01:08:01,599
it's an arab proverb the dog barks but

1934
01:08:05,910 --> 01:08:03,440
the caravan passes you know that's kind

1935
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:05,920
of how i try to write

1936
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:07,520
how to look at it

1937
01:08:12,789 --> 01:08:10,400
that's brilliant uh louie do you have a

1938
01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:12,799
final question for i don't know we can't

1939
01:08:16,470 --> 01:08:14,559
have george knapp on the show without

1940
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:16,480
talking about bob lazar

1941
01:08:22,950 --> 01:08:19,920
i mean in 1989 this guy who initially

1942
01:08:25,430 --> 01:08:22,960
was shrouded on camera voice distorted

1943
01:08:27,829 --> 01:08:25,440
this guy comes out of the woodwork and

1944
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:27,839
says the us's and u.s government is in

1945
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:30,880
possession of recovered craft i know it

1946
01:08:35,349 --> 01:08:33,359
i've seen them firsthand in fact my job

1947
01:08:38,149 --> 01:08:35,359
was to try to figure out what i could

1948
01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:38,159
about them using my nuclear physics

1949
01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:41,040
brain and he was replacing somebody who

1950
01:08:45,189 --> 01:08:43,120
had been killed trying to mess around

1951
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:45,199
with the same thing so this guy comes to

1952
01:08:48,709 --> 01:08:46,799
you with this story

1953
01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:48,719
and subsequently reveals himself for his

1954
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:50,560
own safety because they're messing with

1955
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:53,040
them and letting it known to let it be

1956
01:08:56,550 --> 01:08:54,560
known to him that hey we know where you

1957
01:08:57,990 --> 01:08:56,560
live and go through his car and leave it

1958
01:08:59,590 --> 01:08:58,000
like that so that he would find it and

1959
01:09:01,990 --> 01:08:59,600
that type of thing

1960
01:09:03,590 --> 01:09:02,000
and even to the point of drawing

1961
01:09:05,510 --> 01:09:03,600
pictures this is what they look like

1962
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:05,520
this is how they work they run on a

1963
01:09:11,269 --> 01:09:08,400
strange element 115 that wasn't even

1964
01:09:13,669 --> 01:09:11,279
invented yet and then 20 years later

1965
01:09:16,870 --> 01:09:13,679
yeah it would make a reasonable fuel you

1966
01:09:18,470 --> 01:09:16,880
know element 115 is moscovium so all of

1967
01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:18,480
that that's a massive question all in

1968
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:20,480
one but i definitely want to get

1969
01:09:25,349 --> 01:09:22,480
just your thoughts on that you are a

1970
01:09:27,749 --> 01:09:25,359
pioneer and this sparked a lot in the

1971
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:27,759
uap world was the story of bob lazar

1972
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:30,000
what's one of those stories that just uh

1973
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:31,920
it divides people down the middle maybe

1974
01:09:34,870 --> 01:09:33,279
it's not the middle or something but

1975
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:34,880
there's no there's a very little gray

1976
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:37,040
area people either hate them or they or

1977
01:09:40,870 --> 01:09:39,120
they love them they buy it or they don't

1978
01:09:41,829 --> 01:09:40,880
it was always going to be that way i i

1979
01:09:44,470 --> 01:09:41,839
just

1980
01:09:45,349 --> 01:09:44,480
put it in this context today right now

1981
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:45,359
as we

1982
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:47,520
converse back and forth

1983
01:09:51,590 --> 01:09:49,920
there's a lot of discussion about

1984
01:09:56,149 --> 01:09:51,600
meta materials

1985
01:09:58,630 --> 01:09:56,159
uh retrieved uh unknown uh elements uh

1986
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:58,640
crash retrievals reverse engineering

1987
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:00,480
those things are now being discussed in

1988
01:10:05,030 --> 01:10:02,880
the halls of power in the pentagon in

1989
01:10:06,630 --> 01:10:05,040
congress you have members of the senate

1990
01:10:09,910 --> 01:10:06,640
who are asking hey what's the deal on

1991
01:10:12,310 --> 01:10:09,920
this when can we see it uh you have that

1992
01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:12,320
discussion underway in aerospace uh the

1993
01:10:17,030 --> 01:10:14,320
aerospace industry and is being taken

1994
01:10:19,510 --> 01:10:17,040
seriously well i can tell you that 33

1995
01:10:22,709 --> 01:10:19,520
years ago when it started with me and

1996
01:10:24,070 --> 01:10:22,719
bob lazar it was not taken seriously um

1997
01:10:26,470 --> 01:10:24,080
he came out

1998
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:26,480
at considerable personal risk i know

1999
01:10:31,910 --> 01:10:28,719
that people have looked at his record so

2000
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,920
we you know we've looked at it and every

2001
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:33,760
six months or so someone comes out with

2002
01:10:37,990 --> 01:10:36,480
a new expose of bob lazar aha he didn't

2003
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:38,000
go to these schools that he says he

2004
01:10:42,229 --> 01:10:39,760
didn't work at

2005
01:10:44,470 --> 01:10:42,239
los alamos he he's a fraud he's not a

2006
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,480
scientist all that stuff

2007
01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:46,320
people think that they've come on

2008
01:10:49,669 --> 01:10:47,760
something new they're really going to

2009
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:49,679
blow it out of the water it's the same

2010
01:10:53,590 --> 01:10:51,520
stuff that started back then and it's

2011
01:10:56,229 --> 01:10:53,600
the same stuff we pursued in the very

2012
01:10:58,790 --> 01:10:56,239
first story where i introduced bob lazar

2013
01:11:01,750 --> 01:10:58,800
i reported the schools that he says he

2014
01:11:03,750 --> 01:11:01,760
attended have no records open los alamos

2015
01:11:06,149 --> 01:11:03,760
lab where he says he worked has no

2016
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:06,159
records of him uh his employment records

2017
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:07,360
have disappeared a lot of other things

2018
01:11:12,310 --> 01:11:09,520
have we we reported that from the

2019
01:11:14,870 --> 01:11:12,320
beginning we told that to the public and

2020
01:11:16,790 --> 01:11:14,880
told them make up your mind and i went

2021
01:11:18,709 --> 01:11:16,800
through that myself i mean you know i've

2022
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:18,719
said it publicly a lot of times i never

2023
01:11:24,070 --> 01:11:22,159
believed that bob really went to mit

2024
01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:24,080
and got a master's degree in the same

2025
01:11:28,470 --> 01:11:26,560
way that anyone else would there's a

2026
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:28,480
more complicated story there because i

2027
01:11:32,709 --> 01:11:30,400
couldn't imagine him sitting through

2028
01:11:35,030 --> 01:11:32,719
english lit or something like that yeah

2029
01:11:36,390 --> 01:11:35,040
um you know but for me the question was

2030
01:11:38,709 --> 01:11:36,400
all right the school records are not

2031
01:11:40,790 --> 01:11:38,719
there is it possible that he exaggerated

2032
01:11:42,950 --> 01:11:40,800
his education in order to land this cool

2033
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:42,960
job and i'd say yeah

2034
01:11:46,470 --> 01:11:44,880
do you throw everything out well if he

2035
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:46,480
lied about this then you have to throw

2036
01:11:50,550 --> 01:11:48,560
everything out really have you ever told

2037
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:50,560
the lie you know

2038
01:11:53,270 --> 01:11:51,840
does that mean that everything you've

2039
01:11:54,550 --> 01:11:53,280
ever said is a lie

2040
01:11:56,790 --> 01:11:54,560
so

2041
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:56,800
we did our best back in those days

2042
01:12:01,350 --> 01:11:59,040
pre-internet to verify parts of his

2043
01:12:04,310 --> 01:12:01,360
background what really got me intrigued

2044
01:12:06,310 --> 01:12:04,320
by bob not just his story

2045
01:12:07,590 --> 01:12:06,320
his demeanor of course i got to know him

2046
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:07,600
personally

2047
01:12:13,110 --> 01:12:10,560
the people who know him best even 33

2048
01:12:14,149 --> 01:12:13,120
years later the people closest to him

2049
01:12:15,910 --> 01:12:14,159
believe him

2050
01:12:17,110 --> 01:12:15,920
you know the people who would see him in

2051
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:17,120
real life

2052
01:12:22,149 --> 01:12:19,840
in at home who know about his background

2053
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:22,159
and what he's done they believe him it's

2054
01:12:25,110 --> 01:12:24,000
the people who are further removed who

2055
01:12:29,189 --> 01:12:25,120
don't

2056
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:29,199
send me stuff about balbasaur did you

2057
01:12:34,229 --> 01:12:31,679
know this and that every day i don't

2058
01:12:36,070 --> 01:12:34,239
care you know you can believe it or not

2059
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:36,080
in the beginning it was important to me

2060
01:12:39,830 --> 01:12:37,760
hey look i've investigated the guy

2061
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:39,840
here's what we found

2062
01:12:45,189 --> 01:12:42,800
here's why i believe him uh in in effect

2063
01:12:47,430 --> 01:12:45,199
it's like two ships passing a night the

2064
01:12:49,830 --> 01:12:47,440
story is about bob people will find

2065
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:49,840
information that tends to diminish his

2066
01:12:55,030 --> 01:12:52,239
credibility and they like to ignore the

2067
01:12:56,950 --> 01:12:55,040
stuff that that buttresses his story you

2068
01:12:59,430 --> 01:12:56,960
know a lot of things as you said that he

2069
01:13:02,070 --> 01:12:59,440
knows that he knew back then that turned

2070
01:13:04,550 --> 01:13:02,080
out to be real how did he know him so

2071
01:13:07,030 --> 01:13:04,560
that's really what got me interested

2072
01:13:09,270 --> 01:13:07,040
you know and and really the the nail in

2073
01:13:12,149 --> 01:13:09,280
the coffin for me was how many people

2074
01:13:14,229 --> 01:13:12,159
lied to me about him uh you know i get

2075
01:13:17,110 --> 01:13:14,239
ticked off when somebody in a government

2076
01:13:19,270 --> 01:13:17,120
agency or a government facility lies to

2077
01:13:21,110 --> 01:13:19,280
me about something that i know they're

2078
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:21,120
lying about you know and they did los

2079
01:13:25,910 --> 01:13:23,760
alamos lied to me about him yeah we

2080
01:13:27,270 --> 01:13:25,920
finally proved that they were lying that

2081
01:13:29,350 --> 01:13:27,280
his uh

2082
01:13:31,030 --> 01:13:29,360
the company that hired him lied to me

2083
01:13:34,310 --> 01:13:31,040
they promised to provide these records

2084
01:13:36,790 --> 01:13:34,320
and didn't people at nellis

2085
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:36,800
people in other agencies have lied uh

2086
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:38,800
congressman bill bray who just passed

2087
01:13:43,510 --> 01:13:40,880
away about two months ago when lazar got

2088
01:13:45,750 --> 01:13:43,520
into some criminal trouble um you know

2089
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:45,760
he had done a lot of work at my request

2090
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:48,239
to try to bet to track this stuff down

2091
01:13:53,990 --> 01:13:50,400
and everywhere he went into government

2092
01:13:56,070 --> 01:13:54,000
circles fbi etc he ran into roadblocks

2093
01:13:58,470 --> 01:13:56,080
and they wouldn't say bob lazar's a

2094
01:14:00,709 --> 01:13:58,480
fraud they told this congressman you

2095
01:14:03,830 --> 01:14:00,719
don't have a need to know that's real

2096
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:03,840
that really happened um so i understand

2097
01:14:07,110 --> 01:14:05,679
that people are very passionate on both

2098
01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:07,120
sides

2099
01:14:11,350 --> 01:14:09,040
i would just suggest there really is

2100
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:11,360
something interesting there i think the

2101
01:14:15,350 --> 01:14:13,199
bob is telling a story

2102
01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:15,360
that he believes to be true whether it

2103
01:14:19,510 --> 01:14:17,920
is literally true or not he is open to

2104
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:19,520
the possibility that maybe they messed

2105
01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:22,400
with his head um that did happen but he

2106
01:14:25,669 --> 01:14:24,320
passed a polygraph test we had four

2107
01:14:27,590 --> 01:14:25,679
different tests that were done by this

2108
01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:27,600
polygraph examiner he said he's telling

2109
01:14:32,310 --> 01:14:30,239
the truth there's no deception people

2110
01:14:34,390 --> 01:14:32,320
have analyzed his body language on

2111
01:14:35,270 --> 01:14:34,400
different rogans podcasts and things

2112
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:35,280
like that

2113
01:14:39,350 --> 01:14:37,760
if you spend time with the guy

2114
01:14:41,350 --> 01:14:39,360
he would have to be the most incredible

2115
01:14:43,990 --> 01:14:41,360
liar in history to get away with this

2116
01:14:46,390 --> 01:14:44,000
stuff how he comes across and bob is not

2117
01:14:48,790 --> 01:14:46,400
trying to convince anyone that his story

2118
01:14:50,310 --> 01:14:48,800
is true he wants nothing to do with

2119
01:14:52,870 --> 01:14:50,320
uh you know every once in a while i

2120
01:14:54,470 --> 01:14:52,880
would drag him out and sort of twist his

2121
01:14:55,910 --> 01:14:54,480
arm and get him to give me an update or

2122
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:55,920
something he didn't want to do it yeah

2123
01:14:59,910 --> 01:14:57,520
he didn't want to do it then on the day

2124
01:15:02,390 --> 01:14:59,920
that i revealed his identity

2125
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:02,400
yeah i read it

2126
01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:04,800
he was in the in the tv station i said

2127
01:15:08,070 --> 01:15:06,320
here it is we're going to show you this

2128
01:15:09,830 --> 01:15:08,080
picture he grabbed the tape and tried to

2129
01:15:12,470 --> 01:15:09,840
leave with it he didn't want it to be

2130
01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:12,480
he's the most reluctant ufo messiah in

2131
01:15:15,590 --> 01:15:13,760
history

2132
01:15:17,669 --> 01:15:15,600
and uh i think he's telling the truth as

2133
01:15:19,669 --> 01:15:17,679
he knows whether or not it's the literal

2134
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:19,679
truth or not we may never know but we're

2135
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:21,440
a lot closer to it now than we were back

2136
01:15:26,470 --> 01:15:23,760
then and where we can talk about meta

2137
01:15:28,390 --> 01:15:26,480
materials recovered disks crash

2138
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:28,400
retrievals reverse engineering all that

2139
01:15:31,990 --> 01:15:30,719
stuff is right up there now and started

2140
01:15:33,189 --> 01:15:32,000
with bob i mean

2141
01:15:34,870 --> 01:15:33,199
there were there are other crash

2142
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:34,880
retrieval stories before bob but he's

2143
01:15:38,709 --> 01:15:36,159
the one that came out and talked about

2144
01:15:40,790 --> 01:15:38,719
it and i think it's moved the needle

2145
01:15:43,669 --> 01:15:40,800
there's two there's two points too that

2146
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:43,679
for me always thought was obvious one

2147
01:15:49,830 --> 01:15:47,440
you and bob put um area 51 and s4 on the

2148
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:49,840
map nobody knew about this program or

2149
01:15:54,390 --> 01:15:52,400
this place until he came out and now

2150
01:15:56,070 --> 01:15:54,400
it's a fact that it's there so you know

2151
01:15:58,630 --> 01:15:56,080
excuse my english there but how the

2152
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:58,640
did he know that two he brought people

2153
01:16:02,310 --> 01:15:59,520
to

2154
01:16:03,910 --> 01:16:02,320
go see this thing fly at seven o'clock

2155
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:03,920
at night on wednesdays because that's

2156
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,000
when there was no traffic on the highway

2157
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:08,239
in the middle of nowhere so again how

2158
01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:10,000
did he get that information how did he

2159
01:16:13,430 --> 01:16:11,360
know that they were gonna fly this crap

2160
01:16:15,189 --> 01:16:13,440
to seven o'clock at night on a wednesday

2161
01:16:17,430 --> 01:16:15,199
so when you look at these little tidbits

2162
01:16:19,189 --> 01:16:17,440
just logically you're like huh

2163
01:16:21,270 --> 01:16:19,199
okay how do you predict an element

2164
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:21,280
that's not even invented yet like i'm a

2165
01:16:25,270 --> 01:16:23,360
science mind and you know i remember in

2166
01:16:26,950 --> 01:16:25,280
school i memorized the periodic table of

2167
01:16:28,870 --> 01:16:26,960
the elements because i thought it would

2168
01:16:31,110 --> 01:16:28,880
get me better marks in that particular

2169
01:16:33,669 --> 01:16:31,120
get you this and i got a 98 in chemistry

2170
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:33,679
grade 12. so that was pretty good but

2171
01:16:37,830 --> 01:16:36,239
how do you predict okay you could say

2172
01:16:40,229 --> 01:16:37,840
well yeah if the element you know

2173
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:40,239
periodic element table ends at 98 well

2174
01:16:45,189 --> 01:16:43,040
one day there will be a 101 a 102. you

2175
01:16:47,189 --> 01:16:45,199
could do that but to predict that it

2176
01:16:50,229 --> 01:16:47,199
would be a certain element that would

2177
01:16:52,310 --> 01:16:50,239
make a reasonable fuel for a rocket type

2178
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:52,320
or a nuclear reactor that you could

2179
01:16:56,390 --> 01:16:54,159
actually use to power a craft it's not

2180
01:16:57,510 --> 01:16:56,400
like the properties of these things are

2181
01:16:59,110 --> 01:16:57,520
totally

2182
01:17:01,270 --> 01:16:59,120
contrary to that

2183
01:17:02,709 --> 01:17:01,280
it all makes sense so for me

2184
01:17:04,229 --> 01:17:02,719
you're you're talking about elements

2185
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:04,239
that aren't invented yet and then it

2186
01:17:08,149 --> 01:17:06,880
comes out that yeah this thing exists i

2187
01:17:09,830 --> 01:17:08,159
you can't like you said you'd have to be

2188
01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:09,840
the greatest actor

2189
01:17:15,030 --> 01:17:12,960
liar psychic liar genius on the face of

2190
01:17:17,350 --> 01:17:15,040
the earth to be able to be you know and

2191
01:17:19,270 --> 01:17:17,360
what was in it for him he didn't benefit

2192
01:17:21,030 --> 01:17:19,280
you know he uh he didn't make money he's

2193
01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:21,040
not shouting from the rooftops listening

2194
01:17:24,630 --> 01:17:23,280
to me i'm the alien guy he's super

2195
01:17:26,470 --> 01:17:24,640
humble and just said take her for what

2196
01:17:28,310 --> 01:17:26,480
it's worth this is what happened and you

2197
01:17:32,310 --> 01:17:28,320
know like jason said we wouldn't know of

2198
01:17:34,790 --> 01:17:32,320
area 51 and not even area 51 s4 just

2199
01:17:36,950 --> 01:17:34,800
outside of that like you can't be that

2200
01:17:38,310 --> 01:17:36,960
granular and specific unless there's

2201
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:38,320
something you know there's where there's

2202
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:39,840
smoke there's fire

2203
01:17:44,390 --> 01:17:42,480
so it there's nobody's that lucky to

2204
01:17:46,950 --> 01:17:44,400
just make that kind of stuff up he had

2205
01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:46,960
told us about s4 and i remember calling

2206
01:17:50,390 --> 01:17:48,480
nellis air force base there was a

2207
01:17:52,229 --> 01:17:50,400
captain in charge of their public

2208
01:17:53,990 --> 01:17:52,239
information office who confirmed yeah

2209
01:17:55,669 --> 01:17:54,000
there's an s4

2210
01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:55,679
in fact there's more than one i said

2211
01:17:59,430 --> 01:17:57,520
well can you tell me where they are now

2212
01:18:01,430 --> 01:17:59,440
can you tell me what goes on there no

2213
01:18:03,030 --> 01:18:01,440
you call nellis today and ask them about

2214
01:18:05,189 --> 01:18:03,040
us for they said there's nothing on the

2215
01:18:06,630 --> 01:18:05,199
range maps it doesn't exist well it

2216
01:18:08,550 --> 01:18:06,640
really was there you know we had

2217
01:18:10,630 --> 01:18:08,560
satellite photos back then that showed

2218
01:18:12,950 --> 01:18:10,640
there was a road that went from groom

2219
01:18:14,790 --> 01:18:12,960
lake down to papua's

2220
01:18:16,950 --> 01:18:14,800
supposedly to a spot where they had

2221
01:18:18,950 --> 01:18:16,960
never had anything there was nothing at

2222
01:18:20,950 --> 01:18:18,960
whatsoever at all there

2223
01:18:21,669 --> 01:18:20,960
somewhere someone built a road down

2224
01:18:24,630 --> 01:18:21,679
there

2225
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:24,640
for some reason for the element 115

2226
01:18:28,950 --> 01:18:27,040
i you know that was a mesmerizing

2227
01:18:31,110 --> 01:18:28,960
element to the story you know and he had

2228
01:18:34,149 --> 01:18:31,120
it in a he had a piece of it he didn't

2229
01:18:35,350 --> 01:18:34,159
steal it but he had it and it was in a

2230
01:18:39,189 --> 01:18:35,360
sort of a

2231
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:39,199
pewter looking metallic uh disc

2232
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:41,760
that he had at his house and he only uh

2233
01:18:45,910 --> 01:18:44,000
used one time that he did an experiment

2234
01:18:47,590 --> 01:18:45,920
that i think you guys have probably seen

2235
01:18:51,189 --> 01:18:47,600
where it was a cloud chamber where it

2236
01:18:52,870 --> 01:18:51,199
bent light in this fish tank um and bob

2237
01:18:55,590 --> 01:18:52,880
told me in the very first interview

2238
01:18:57,830 --> 01:18:55,600
about 115 and he said look we're it's

2239
01:18:59,510 --> 01:18:57,840
stable it's heavy

2240
01:19:02,310 --> 01:18:59,520
but we're never going to be able to make

2241
01:19:04,709 --> 01:19:02,320
it you know we have synthesized 115 now

2242
01:19:06,630 --> 01:19:04,719
it lasts for a few micro seconds and

2243
01:19:08,550 --> 01:19:06,640
then it goes away but he said it would

2244
01:19:11,350 --> 01:19:08,560
take so much energy

2245
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:11,360
to create stable 115 he doesn't think

2246
01:19:15,030 --> 01:19:13,040
that we humans will ever be able to do

2247
01:19:16,709 --> 01:19:15,040
it he said that that piece

2248
01:19:18,709 --> 01:19:16,719
had to come from somewhere where it's a

2249
01:19:20,709 --> 01:19:18,719
natural element like in a dual star

2250
01:19:23,430 --> 01:19:20,719
system something like that so

2251
01:19:25,990 --> 01:19:23,440
people have uh either said all right

2252
01:19:27,430 --> 01:19:26,000
yeah he knew about 115 or they lock on

2253
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:27,440
to the fact that it's not as he

2254
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:29,760
described it well what we've created is

2255
01:19:34,149 --> 01:19:31,920
a version it's an isotope just as there

2256
01:19:36,070 --> 01:19:34,159
are multiple isotopes of gold there

2257
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:36,080
aren't many of them that are stable but

2258
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:38,159
eventually if we had enough money and

2259
01:19:42,070 --> 01:19:40,159
energy to put into it we could make we

2260
01:19:44,470 --> 01:19:42,080
haven't done it yet but bob was way

2261
01:19:46,550 --> 01:19:44,480
ahead of the curve um you know he wasn't

2262
01:19:49,350 --> 01:19:46,560
the first one to predict that there was

2263
01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:49,360
going to be an element like 115 but he's

2264
01:19:53,110 --> 01:19:50,800
among the only ones that say yeah

2265
01:19:54,709 --> 01:19:53,120
there's an island of stability in there

2266
01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:54,719
and i think he'll be proven accurate

2267
01:19:57,830 --> 01:19:55,840
eventually

2268
01:19:59,750 --> 01:19:57,840
people it's like a rorschach test if you

2269
01:20:02,550 --> 01:19:59,760
want to believe bob you can you can find

2270
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:02,560
enough to justify his story i think i'm

2271
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,360
in that camp i found enough that that is

2272
01:20:09,910 --> 01:20:07,920
uh hard to explain otherwise unless he

2273
01:20:11,270 --> 01:20:09,920
knew what was really going on and then

2274
01:20:13,430 --> 01:20:11,280
you will have people who will never

2275
01:20:15,590 --> 01:20:13,440
believe it they will latch on to the few

2276
01:20:17,830 --> 01:20:15,600
things about him the things about him

2277
01:20:19,830 --> 01:20:17,840
that uh dissuade them from believing him

2278
01:20:21,910 --> 01:20:19,840
you know this criminal element that

2279
01:20:23,910 --> 01:20:21,920
there was a something he did it's a very

2280
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:23,920
human kind of a thing and the reason we

2281
01:20:27,990 --> 01:20:25,679
know about it is because i reported it

2282
01:20:29,990 --> 01:20:28,000
yeah i went to this this place where

2283
01:20:32,310 --> 01:20:30,000
this uh this hooker had an operation in

2284
01:20:34,870 --> 01:20:32,320
an apartment lazar had told me about it

2285
01:20:36,550 --> 01:20:34,880
i thought oh my god oh no this is my

2286
01:20:37,590 --> 01:20:36,560
life is flashing before my eyes what

2287
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:37,600
have i done

2288
01:20:40,149 --> 01:20:38,880
so i don't believe it what are you

2289
01:20:41,990 --> 01:20:40,159
talking about

2290
01:20:43,590 --> 01:20:42,000
yeah it's it's like two blocks from

2291
01:20:46,709 --> 01:20:43,600
where you live on the same street i said

2292
01:20:47,910 --> 01:20:46,719
oh no this is the end just show me i

2293
01:20:50,629 --> 01:20:47,920
went there

2294
01:20:52,470 --> 01:20:50,639
and uh it was very clever in a lazarian

2295
01:20:55,270 --> 01:20:52,480
kind of way there was two apartments

2296
01:20:56,629 --> 01:20:55,280
back to back and they had carved a hole

2297
01:20:58,550 --> 01:20:56,639
in a closet

2298
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:58,560
here one apartment was sort of like the

2299
01:21:02,709 --> 01:21:01,199
office the intake center and they're

2300
01:21:05,990 --> 01:21:02,719
going through the closet that's where

2301
01:21:07,590 --> 01:21:06,000
the girls would work and oh my god

2302
01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:07,600
i think they even offered me a freebie

2303
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:09,679
when i was there then oh yeah you think

2304
01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:12,239
i think i should do that

2305
01:21:16,470 --> 01:21:15,040
it's on the house come on i told bob

2306
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:16,480
after i left i said you got to shut this

2307
01:21:20,790 --> 01:21:19,199
down you got to shut it down now

2308
01:21:22,950 --> 01:21:20,800
because there were two cops two vice

2309
01:21:25,030 --> 01:21:22,960
cops who knew about it at the time

2310
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:25,040
and i said you got to shut it down i

2311
01:21:29,189 --> 01:21:27,040
will contact the police i'm going to let

2312
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:29,199
him know about this that it's done so he

2313
01:21:32,950 --> 01:21:31,600
shut it down i contacted the police i

2314
01:21:35,189 --> 01:21:32,960
said you know

2315
01:21:37,750 --> 01:21:35,199
a couple of your cops know about it

2316
01:21:39,430 --> 01:21:37,760
it's done for now the next day they raid

2317
01:21:41,590 --> 01:21:39,440
it and and decided that they were going

2318
01:21:42,870 --> 01:21:41,600
to make an example of him in those days

2319
01:21:44,629 --> 01:21:42,880
there weren't a whole lot of people in

2320
01:21:47,590 --> 01:21:44,639
las vegas who were prosecuted for

2321
01:21:49,350 --> 01:21:47,600
pandering you know there are now um but

2322
01:21:50,790 --> 01:21:49,360
there weren't then and it was

2323
01:21:53,350 --> 01:21:50,800
i think a lot of the people who worked

2324
01:21:55,110 --> 01:21:53,360
with him and out who are out there now

2325
01:21:56,870 --> 01:21:55,120
probably saw that as an example if you

2326
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:56,880
don't come public with this stuff

2327
01:21:59,830 --> 01:21:58,880
because they'll destroy your life yeah

2328
01:22:00,950 --> 01:21:59,840
um

2329
01:22:02,629 --> 01:22:00,960
you know it was it was a really

2330
01:22:05,270 --> 01:22:02,639
interesting time

2331
01:22:07,030 --> 01:22:05,280
it was very dicey we were followed you

2332
01:22:09,350 --> 01:22:07,040
know we were followed some of the guys

2333
01:22:11,270 --> 01:22:09,360
who followed us around then

2334
01:22:13,350 --> 01:22:11,280
told me about it after they got out you

2335
01:22:15,110 --> 01:22:13,360
know after they were done with the work

2336
01:22:16,709 --> 01:22:15,120
there were break-ins at his house people

2337
01:22:18,790 --> 01:22:16,719
would come in leave all the doors and

2338
01:22:20,709 --> 01:22:18,800
windows open they'd write things on his

2339
01:22:22,550 --> 01:22:20,719
on his blackboard they'd erase things

2340
01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:22,560
they'd move things around did that ever

2341
01:22:26,470 --> 01:22:24,880
happen to you george like did did did

2342
01:22:29,590 --> 01:22:26,480
they mess with you at all like that when

2343
01:22:31,990 --> 01:22:29,600
you were investigating him

2344
01:22:33,990 --> 01:22:32,000
yes and no i mean i was followed my

2345
01:22:36,470 --> 01:22:34,000
phones were tapped um people would

2346
01:22:39,350 --> 01:22:36,480
follow me home they would follow me to

2347
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:39,360
different restaurants and bars i'd go to

2348
01:22:43,110 --> 01:22:41,120
um and i really was pretty ticked off

2349
01:22:45,110 --> 01:22:43,120
about it in those days you know

2350
01:22:47,669 --> 01:22:45,120
i have told this story before but in the

2351
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:47,679
uh in the wake of bob lazar

2352
01:22:52,629 --> 01:22:50,159
and we're working on a second series i

2353
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:52,639
had multiple people call me to offer

2354
01:22:57,510 --> 01:22:54,560
information there were six of them right

2355
01:22:58,950 --> 01:22:57,520
in a row who told me that they they told

2356
01:23:01,189 --> 01:22:58,960
me their story

2357
01:23:03,430 --> 01:23:01,199
what they had seen what they knew

2358
01:23:05,669 --> 01:23:03,440
and they agreed to go on camera

2359
01:23:07,030 --> 01:23:05,679
and one after another they were visited

2360
01:23:09,030 --> 01:23:07,040
by people

2361
01:23:11,750 --> 01:23:09,040
from agencies who told them to shut the

2362
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:11,760
hell up or else there was one lady i

2363
01:23:15,189 --> 01:23:13,120
told this story before she worked for

2364
01:23:17,189 --> 01:23:15,199
our court system

2365
01:23:19,750 --> 01:23:17,199
she had worked as a secretary to a

2366
01:23:22,709 --> 01:23:19,760
defense contractor sat in on meetings

2367
01:23:23,669 --> 01:23:22,719
involving air force people from nellis

2368
01:23:26,070 --> 01:23:23,679
and

2369
01:23:28,390 --> 01:23:26,080
contractors at area 51 where they talked

2370
01:23:31,030 --> 01:23:28,400
about crash retrieval material she took

2371
01:23:32,950 --> 01:23:31,040
the notes a stenographer and then they

2372
01:23:35,189 --> 01:23:32,960
would take the typewriter out of the the

2373
01:23:37,110 --> 01:23:35,199
ribbon out of the typewriter

2374
01:23:39,110 --> 01:23:37,120
and would take the notes and she was

2375
01:23:41,830 --> 01:23:39,120
sworn secrecy and she told this story to

2376
01:23:43,990 --> 01:23:41,840
a cop i knew who told me the story i

2377
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:44,000
reached out to her she agreed to do an

2378
01:23:48,149 --> 01:23:45,760
interview on camera if i blacked out her

2379
01:23:50,149 --> 01:23:48,159
face and the next day she's visited by

2380
01:23:52,310 --> 01:23:50,159
these guys who say look we know that you

2381
01:23:54,390 --> 01:23:52,320
travel to la to see your daughter and

2382
01:23:55,750 --> 01:23:54,400
that she travels to see you it's a big

2383
01:23:57,030 --> 01:23:55,760
desert out there

2384
01:23:58,709 --> 01:23:57,040
it'd be terrible if something happened

2385
01:24:01,750 --> 01:23:58,719
to either one of you she was scared to

2386
01:24:03,669 --> 01:24:01,760
death she's she was she's now passed on

2387
01:24:05,590 --> 01:24:03,679
but she was scared to death about that

2388
01:24:08,149 --> 01:24:05,600
that really happened these people were

2389
01:24:10,229 --> 01:24:08,159
not crisis actors they had i had reached

2390
01:24:11,590 --> 01:24:10,239
out to them some reached out to me and

2391
01:24:13,590 --> 01:24:11,600
one right after another somebody told

2392
01:24:15,430 --> 01:24:13,600
them to shut up that really happened so

2393
01:24:16,629 --> 01:24:15,440
somebody was watching us they were

2394
01:24:17,830 --> 01:24:16,639
messing with bob they tried to

2395
01:24:19,910 --> 01:24:17,840
intimidate him

2396
01:24:21,110 --> 01:24:19,920
and uh he went forward i think he felt

2397
01:24:23,430 --> 01:24:21,120
like it was the only way to save his

2398
01:24:25,750 --> 01:24:23,440
life so i know it is controversial and

2399
01:24:27,510 --> 01:24:25,760
people have strong feelings both ways

2400
01:24:29,750 --> 01:24:27,520
believe what you want you know there is

2401
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:29,760
stuff to support his story there's stuff

2402
01:24:32,950 --> 01:24:31,520
to denigrate his story

2403
01:24:35,430 --> 01:24:32,960
people latch on to whatever they want to

2404
01:24:37,510 --> 01:24:35,440
believe but i believe him

2405
01:24:39,830 --> 01:24:37,520
doesn't mean it's literally true but i

2406
01:24:41,510 --> 01:24:39,840
suspect that it is

2407
01:24:43,350 --> 01:24:41,520
yeah he's a brilliant man too like you

2408
01:24:45,270 --> 01:24:43,360
mentioned several times he'll just build

2409
01:24:47,110 --> 01:24:45,280
you stuff like if you need a scanner

2410
01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:47,120
he's like dude i'll build you one like

2411
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:49,360
he's just yeah was he building rocket

2412
01:24:56,790 --> 01:24:55,350
yeah he bought that rocket car and then

2413
01:24:59,750 --> 01:24:56,800
tinkered with it and made it but he

2414
01:25:02,550 --> 01:24:59,760
built a rocket engine for his honda he

2415
01:25:05,669 --> 01:25:02,560
had a a backpack a rocket engine

2416
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:05,679
uh ford that would propel a scooter um

2417
01:25:09,910 --> 01:25:07,600
you know he developed a hydrogen system

2418
01:25:11,189 --> 01:25:09,920
when i went to see him in new mexico

2419
01:25:13,030 --> 01:25:11,199
the first time i went there when he

2420
01:25:14,709 --> 01:25:13,040
moved there he had a hydrogen system

2421
01:25:17,430 --> 01:25:14,719
that ran his car

2422
01:25:18,310 --> 01:25:17,440
just his corvette there was a 30 foot

2423
01:25:20,149 --> 01:25:18,320
long

2424
01:25:22,070 --> 01:25:20,159
particle accelerator in a house in the

2425
01:25:24,229 --> 01:25:22,080
back of his home

2426
01:25:26,550 --> 01:25:24,239
that he had used to create this hydrogen

2427
01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:26,560
fuel pretty good for a non-scientist

2428
01:25:30,629 --> 01:25:29,040
dude to do that yeah right yeah you had

2429
01:25:32,629 --> 01:25:30,639
mentioned like he'll build you something

2430
01:25:33,830 --> 01:25:32,639
he made a flamethrower for jeremy

2431
01:25:36,390 --> 01:25:33,840
corbell

2432
01:25:38,470 --> 01:25:36,400
this is before elon musk developed one

2433
01:25:40,709 --> 01:25:38,480
right and for me at the beginning of

2434
01:25:41,990 --> 01:25:40,719
coconut i was stuck at no ms

2435
01:25:43,669 --> 01:25:42,000
we're a little worried we didn't know

2436
01:25:45,669 --> 01:25:43,679
about covet how it spread but people

2437
01:25:48,229 --> 01:25:45,679
were saying you got to disinfect your

2438
01:25:50,470 --> 01:25:48,239
packages and things deliveries i said i

2439
01:25:52,070 --> 01:25:50,480
think i might try to buy some uv scanner

2440
01:25:53,750 --> 01:25:52,080
he goes no no don't do that hold on i

2441
01:25:55,590 --> 01:25:53,760
might have enough here in my garage to

2442
01:25:57,990 --> 01:25:55,600
build you one and it's a week later it

2443
01:26:00,709 --> 01:25:58,000
arrives he just who has the stuff to

2444
01:26:02,470 --> 01:26:00,719
build a uv yeah scanner device in your

2445
01:26:04,229 --> 01:26:02,480
garage well he did

2446
01:26:05,830 --> 01:26:04,239
and it worked you know i can't even find

2447
01:26:07,189 --> 01:26:05,840
a screwdriver in my garage it's just

2448
01:26:09,189 --> 01:26:07,199
such a mess

2449
01:26:11,270 --> 01:26:09,199
that's why they didn't ask you to re-uh

2450
01:26:13,189 --> 01:26:11,280
reverse engineer these crafts obviously

2451
01:26:15,189 --> 01:26:13,199
i've been i've been waiting but uh

2452
01:26:17,830 --> 01:26:15,199
they've never got in touch with me so

2453
01:26:19,830 --> 01:26:17,840
that's just they don't need me

2454
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:19,840
perfect george i thank you so much for

2455
01:26:24,229 --> 01:26:22,639
coming on the podcast today you're very

2456
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:24,239
generous with your time sir and we're

2457
01:26:28,229 --> 01:26:26,239
very appreciative of this and especially

2458
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:28,239
because this is the second year

2459
01:26:33,030 --> 01:26:30,159
anniversary episode

2460
01:26:34,870 --> 01:26:33,040
that's what we're making it um it means

2461
01:26:37,189 --> 01:26:34,880
a lot to talk to you and like i said

2462
01:26:39,510 --> 01:26:37,199
we've been fans since you know the first

2463
01:26:42,070 --> 01:26:39,520
story that i've ever seen which was

2464
01:26:44,950 --> 01:26:42,080
bob lazar came out i've been a fan

2465
01:26:46,390 --> 01:26:44,960
and uh i will continue to be so so um

2466
01:26:48,870 --> 01:26:46,400
yeah thank you so much for coming on the

2467
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:48,880
podcast and it just for the viewers it

2468
01:26:52,950 --> 01:26:50,800
for the listeners that have don't know

2469
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:52,960
where to find you yet where can we find

2470
01:26:57,270 --> 01:26:54,560
you online

2471
01:26:58,790 --> 01:26:57,280
well i work for klaus still off and on i

2472
01:27:01,110 --> 01:26:58,800
you know they they give me a lot of

2473
01:27:02,830 --> 01:27:01,120
flexibility mystery wire has been where

2474
01:27:05,270 --> 01:27:02,840
i've been posting my stories

2475
01:27:07,430 --> 01:27:05,280
mysterywire.com and we took a little uh

2476
01:27:10,070 --> 01:27:07,440
a sabbatical from that but i'm starting

2477
01:27:11,430 --> 01:27:10,080
to put new content on there i host coast

2478
01:27:14,310 --> 01:27:11,440
to coast radio

2479
01:27:16,229 --> 01:27:14,320
and uh column and i are working on a

2480
01:27:18,550 --> 01:27:16,239
follow-up to skinwalkers at the pentagon

2481
01:27:21,189 --> 01:27:18,560
i hope people will check that out um

2482
01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:21,199
we i think it needs to be a film project

2483
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:23,600
documentary project right with column

2484
01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:26,400
and and uh and jim lakatsky you know

2485
01:27:30,950 --> 01:27:28,239
he's only have been on camera like dr

2486
01:27:32,149 --> 01:27:30,960
lukaszki for a little brief clip i think

2487
01:27:34,390 --> 01:27:32,159
we're going to coax him and doing

2488
01:27:38,790 --> 01:27:34,400
something more and colin kelleher he was

2489
01:27:41,990 --> 01:27:40,390
when you have him on your show then you

2490
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:42,000
get the real scoop because he's the guy

2491
01:27:45,030 --> 01:27:43,920
that really knows this stuff much better

2492
01:27:47,270 --> 01:27:45,040
than i do

2493
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:47,280
jason and louis thanks for having me and